New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[RTIII]

So, I had to wait a long time before my chosen vendor would confirm they had the product in stock. Meanwhile, they kept trying to get me to by a lower wattage / voltage system they DID have in stock... It was such a saga just to get where I am, I figured others might benefit from the story. So here's how it has gone so far.

The Timeline - abbreviated; just the highlights / lowlights:

* June 3, 2017: I found this ad, like the price ($290 - it's now gone up), but need the VLCD5 display, and NOT the Xh-18 since I have a "classic 10 speed" style handlebar set - it would be pointed backwards, not sideways. And, I want to add a throttle and there's no place to plug in the throttle / hand-brake cut-out switches on the Xh-18. Here's the ad:

http://www.auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_1&products_id=1780

I was pointed to an add at another site that's also them - same company, apparently. But the ad showed the unit for $350, not $290, so I didn't bite! Here's that other ad:

http://bms-battery.com/home/21-tongsheng-tsdz2-mid-drive-central-motor-conversion-ebike-kittorque-sensor-48v-500w-42t-chainwheel-electric-bicycle-motor-0727670837476.html

It's now showing $340 - again, it was $350 on June 3.

* June 8, 2017: They emailed me a URL to a new ad showing the TSDZ2 with the VLCD5, still at $290, placed the order. Note that placing the order took LITERALLY HOURS as I tried every computer I could find because I wanted to pay via credit card and NOT via PayPal or Western Union. In frustration, I asked a friend to pay for me with PayPal, and as I went through the steps, I realized that you can do a one-time-only with PayPal and pay via Credit Card. NOT HAPPY, but I went ahead anyway. Here's the second ad:

http://www.auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_1&products_id=1802

* June 9, 2017: Got confirmation they got the $$ but their freight calculator got it wrong and they blame me somehow (bullshit!) but I "PayPal" them the extra $$. (Shipping was $60, making $350 total price.) They later confirm receipt of funds and respond with a tracking number, say the package is already out the door, but say the tracking system probably won't show anything until Monday since it was late on Friday. I tried the DHL site, no data.

* June 11, late morning, Pacific: Tried DHL web site, just for fun. Package showed up, but seemed to indicate it was only a shipping label had been generated. I contacted them for clarification.

* June 12, after noon, Pacific: DHL responded that they STILL had no further data and gave me a few paragraphs that in effect said, "we've never seen it." Wrote vendor, copy / pasted quote from DHL and asked them what to expect.

* June 13, got one line reply, skipping all the usual cordial salutation and signature and read only:

"DO NOT WORRY, THE CARGO IS ON THE WAY, YOU WILL GET THE ITEM WITHIN ONE WEEK"

Checked DHL; It still only says, "Shipment information received" and nothing else helpful - except, it is comforting to see the correct destination city!

* LATE June 13: Got a text message from DHL claiming that the package will be delivered June 14, 2017, and then it suddenly dawns on me; that's TOMORROW!

---end-timeline---

So, presuming I get it, it won't really have been on the slow-boat from China! From Thursday to the following Wednesday is damned quick! NOW my big concern is that, thinking it was going to take 3 weeks from this vendor (as reported by someone else in this thread, some 6 or more pages back), I now deeply regret having taken the slow "free shipping" from Amazon and NOT paid the $6 to have some key parts here "in two days." And another problem: I STILL don't have a battery pack! ACK!

Will report further; will it show tomorrow or not!

P.S. I like that they didn't / wouldn't take my money until it was in stock. I didn't like the lack of English skills and very poor responsiveness, but they appear to have gotten it together somehow. I also didn't like that they told me they couldn't sell me - and implied through their bad English that I couldn't have - a throttle for this unit!

 

[eyebyesickle]

DHL tracking system is HORRIBLE, haah stresses me out. Then, they text your phone like 10 times when they are close!! If you have that setup. Hey, just a thought, and he might be out, but they guy was selling these BMS lipo batteries, for $5 a pop in the for sale section, a bunch of people got some... me to. With the low amp output this unit needs, they are perfect, and easy to wire together. 11.1v 4250mah units, already with BMS, so you can just wire em together. Not EXACTLY 48v, but 4 of em are very close, or go 5! and its sooo cheap. I had to mention. I have been using em for my projects (but he might already be out, dunno) just see you mentioning about batteries.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=87683

 

[Norton]

... it won't really have been on the slow-boat from China! From Thursday to the following Wednesday is damned quick! ..... And another problem: I STILL don't have a battery pack! ACK!
Will report further; will it show tomorrow or not!....

Thanks for the saga and reporting on this vendor. We'll be watching.
Only now,,, about the battery pack,,,, it will be on a slow boat and/or truck depending on who you buy it from. Let's us know how that works.

 

[squee22]

well with the xh18, the throttle doesn't go from the display, you have to tap into it from the controller, or mid line, depending how it was sent to you... you really have to open it up... you can get them prewired... the connector just splits before the display, unlike the old display where 1 wire goes in, and then they go from the display to the rest...

ill be opening em up and posting pics within a couple weeks...

My controller is potted so working on the controller is not an option.

Do you know which wires are the throttle, or where to pick up a prewired splitter?

I look forward to the pictures

 

[squee22]

any 100 hole diameter sprocket will work. Spacer sizes will depend on your chain dimension - but don't go too thick or you might interere with the motor. IDK - I only have the one sprocket on mine.

I did a 52 tooth on the front, 16 on the back with a shinamo nexus 7 internal hub gearing, and 20 inch wheels. Gets up to 32kph (legal limit) without too much work.

Your mileage will vary - but the bigger front sprocket the better imho

Thanks for the post, squee22, but I SURE HOPE that was a typo! Others have reported the size is 110 BCD, and so I ordered one yesterday!

...I was actually asking about the mounting hardware, thinking I'd already gotten the gear - now I need to be able to mount it! ... It looks from photos that the TSDZ2 has female threads in an aluminum hub of some kind and the chainring and guard are mounted with a male bolt with internal hex - likely 5 or 6mm allen key is my guess. But how do you mount a SECOND one on there? My guess is that the guard must be placed at a reasonable spacing from the existing chainring, and since I want to mount my 52T on the outside, I could perhaps just bolt it on where the guard is now. Would be nice to have a guard, though!

Any input on this point (from someone who's added a second chainring, preferably!) is greatly appreciated!

yes typo 110
sorry

I bought a chainring from a junker and used the existing hardware, but I only have the one sprocket.

To do a dual chainring I would stack them with spacers and a longer bolt. mounting it instead of a gaurd on the outside might work too - and just use the mount as a spacer. You'll know when you have it. Be careful mounting on the outside as that put too much strain on my chain. I had to mount everything on the inside closer to the motor so the chain was straighter. This motor already sticks out a bit and changes the chain alignment. My bike is a folder, though so has strange dimensions - your milage might vary.

 

[jbalat]

Guys just finished posting my video on how good this motor is and on my way back home today I started getting some interesting sounds out of my motor.

On a slight incline I swear I could hear frogs croaking but the sound got louder as the hill got steeper and realised it was me !!
I have only put 300km on the motor. When I concentrated more on the sound I could attribute it to a dry bearing sound.

Anyway got home and sprayed some silicon spray into every nook and cranny and under the rubber seal. The sound changed to a creaking sound. Done up the cranks which sound almost identical and sound persists. Turned motor off and sound still persists.

Not sure if the initial sound has gone away totally because the second ride was just a short ride up the street.

Anyway I am thinking of pulling this thing apart to take a look, maybe all it needs is to be packed with lithium grease ? Anyone have any links with pictures on how this thing comes apart ?

If you havent see the video yet you can check it out here
[youtube]Mjitovhrbuk[/youtube]

 

[jbalat]

Sorry false alarm guys the motor still rocks !!

The first noise was just the chain dragging over the rear derailleur, it wasn't threaded through properly and for some reason decided to let me know about a week later.

The second noise was my motor pushing up against the frame, sorted that out by adding some rubber between the motor and frame which I should have done in the first place..

The motor was not all the way home and also pushing against the rear swing arm pivot. So by tightening the motor it was in fact putting a twisting force. I pulled the motor out and added some sopacers to ensure that there was clearance to the pivot. This means the bolts and spacers that clamp the motor to the bottom bracket are now too short so I have left them out for now until I can get some longer bolts. I'm sure the clamp doesn't do too much in the way of clamping but it may add some triangulation and prevent flexing of the motor away from the bottom bracket.

Anyway all good

 

[eyebyesickle]

well with the xh18, the throttle doesn't go from the display, you have to tap into it from the controller, or mid line, depending how it was sent to you... you really have to open it up... you can get them prewired... the connector just splits before the display, unlike the old display where 1 wire goes in, and then they go from the display to the rest...

ill be opening em up and posting pics within a couple weeks...

My controller is potted so working on the controller is not an option.

Do you know which wires are the throttle, or where to pick up a prewired splitter?

I look forward to the pictures

See, it depends. Some people offer the xh 18 with the brakes, some with the brakes AND throttle, some with neither...

Some of the 9 pin connectors will be filled with 8 pins, so you can tap into them anywhere, some, only have 6... I have no ordered from everywhere, but I have got a couple, and I have eyes, and ears... so anyway... I was going to try to cover it all... yeah potted controller can be a thing... I guess the question is how bad do you want a throttle! =)

 

[RTIII]

Guys just finished posting my video on how good this motor is and on my way back home today I started getting some interesting sounds out of my motor.

On a slight incline I swear I could hear frogs croaking but the sound got louder as the hill got steeper and realised it was me !!
I have only put 300km on the motor. When I concentrated more on the sound I could attribute it to a dry bearing sound.

Hi jbalat,

when I first found this thread, I read EVERY POSTING, and buried in there are several reports from owners where they talk about squeaks external from the motor and ALSO there are reports about insufficient grease (at least one, anyway). I think it's a good idea to open up the motor casing from new and ensure the lubrication is copious - _almost_ can't have too much! And, the right type / grade for your service use (I'd use a lighter grease if I were in Canada or Alaska, for example, than if I were in Florida. I think someone said the original type is lithium - same as (most of) our batteries!

Also note that the motor should probably be opened up, cleaned, and relubricated on SOME schedule - what makes sense I have no idea yet, but annually isn't a bad idea, and AFTER your local rainy season seems smart! Someone discussed using a sealant on the case, and it sounds like it might be a great idea, just be damned careful where the sealant goes! Too much is a bad thing!

 

[RTIII]

Some people offer the xh 18 with the brakes, some with the brakes AND throttle, some with neither...

Some of the 9 pin connectors will be filled with 8 pins, so you can tap into them anywhere, some, only have 6... I have no ordered from everywhere, but I have got a couple, and I have eyes, and ears... so anyway... I was going to try to cover it all... yeah potted controller can be a thing... I guess the question is how bad do you want a throttle! =)

Hi eyebyesickle,

I expect delivery of my TSDZ2 TODAY! So I expect to find out soon which of these possibilities I have, but I VERY MUCH want to add a throttle. I sure hope my unit isn't hard to "hack"! I ordered it with the VLCD5... Hopefully, it'll be easy to add the throttle!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH --- in advance, of course! --- FOR HELPING US FIGURE OUT HOW TO ADD A THROTTLE!

 

[eyebyesickle]

for the models that come with the VLDC 5, it just has a plug in connector that comes from the display! I'm surprised that isn't coming with brakes etc... I thought all of them with the VLDC5 come with the full kit...

If you are just buying 1 throttle

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/36V-48V-Thumb-Throttle-For-TSDZ2-TSDZ3-TONGSHENG-Torque-Sensor-Sealed-Waterproof-Connector-Mid-Drive-Motor/32811864007.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.2.lJbNnf&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_10136_10137_10060_10155_10062_437_10154_10056_10055_10054_10059_303_100031_10099_10103_10102_10096_10052_10053_10142_10107_10050_10051_5030014_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10178_10110_519_10111_10112_10113_10114_10182_10078_10079_10073_10123_10189_142,searchweb201603_50,ppcSwitch_4&btsid=a46343cf-1102-401a-baf1-88a22b770aa6&algo_expid=93339693-15b5-44be-be3b-a87a90fc92c3-0&algo_pvid=93339693-15b5-44be-be3b-a87a90fc92c3

is the only place I know to buy one. You can see in the link, the connector that plugs into the VLDC5...

Or were you wanting to connect to another throttle? Or are you worried your cable doesn't have all the wires needed since you didn't order the throttle.

In my experience, the issue with hooking up a throttle is only with the XH18, they always come with all the wires going all the way to the display with the VLDC5...

 

[RTIII]

for the models that come with the VLDC 5, it just has a plug in connector that comes from the display! I'm surprised that isn't coming with brakes etc... I thought all of them with the VLDC5 come with the full kit...

If you are just buying 1 throttle

[That link] is the only place I know to buy one. You can see in the link, the connector that plugs into the VLDC5...

Or were you wanting to connect to another throttle? Or are you worried your cable doesn't have all the wires needed since you didn't order the throttle.

In my experience, the issue with hooking up a throttle is only with the XH18, they always come with all the wires going all the way to the display with the VLDC5...

YAY! :lol: Great news! I was pretty sure that had to be true, but my vendor said it CANNOT come with a throttle! And I thought, "bullshit!" Looks like I was correct!

Here's the link to the one I got:

http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_1&products_id=1802

And thanks for that link to the throttle!

Right now I'm enjoying a cocktail while I disassemble the crankset from my Raleigh... I'm getting it ready, even though the BATTERY won't show up for another week - at least it is supposed to be on the way. (And since there's been such discussion about it, I was convinced to try em3ev.com. What convinced me was the fact that they are the ONLY vendor I've seen so far who was so damned accurate in their numbers - not rounding up or down, and giving it to you straight. That's impressive (and I wonder why nobody else I've seen, not even Luna, gets it right). (I created a spreadsheet that covers at least four different types of 18650 cells.)

As an aside, I wrote Luna saying I wanted specifications for their chargers before deciding and I got an email back asking:

"What kind of technical info are you looking for?"

I found that rather remarkable. Really? You don't know what the friggen specifications are? You can't just publish what's probably PRINTED ON THE DEVICES?! It was a real face-palm moment. Not all chargers are created equal. A great many have the voltage too high. Many don't have the right cut-off criteria. ...I started to reply about charging voltage, whether it was constant current, whether it cut out when the current dropped below a certain point or what, and then it dawned on me that it's NOT MY JOB to educate the salesman - and that was when I decided to NOT buy from Luna.

Also worth mentioning is that I've decided on the DAMNED expensive Grin Cycle Satiator Charger simply because firstly, I DO have various battery types I'm using, and secondly, it's capable of some serious charge rates, AND I love the fact that you can create custom charging profiles. ... I'm a (seriously under-paid) scientist, so I'm always concerned with the technical details - that's where the Devil is, after all! :wink:

 

[Norton]

....Right now I'm enjoying a cocktail while I disassemble the crankset from my Raleigh... I'm getting it ready, even though the BATTERY won't show up for another week ...
I was convinced to try em3ev.com. What convinced me was the fact that they are the ONLY vendor I've seen so far who was so damned accurate in their numbers .... not even Luna, gets it right). (I created a spreadsheet that covers at least four different types of 18650 cells.)... I decided to NOT buy from Luna.

Also worth mentioning is that I've decided on the DAMNED expensive Grin Cycle Satiator Charger ... ... I'm a (seriously under-paid) scientist, so I'm always concerned with the technical details - that's where the Devil is, after all! :wink:

RT, Wish I was there helping! I have a large collection of bike tools, assembled my fleet of bikes from bare frames, and make a nice 'Skinny Margarita' thing!

I am following your build and will probably follow in your foot steps, except I don't need the capabilities of the Satiator. I do want to be able to charge my 48V pack to 80%, so I will have to find a charger that does that.
Or build a variable voltage triggered relay to break power to the charger. Recommendations?

Which battery pack did you go with from em3ev? Seems like quick shipping for a boat...
I too am starting to question Luna... :x Has anyone measured a new pack from them?

(I work in tech, drive an EV and I'm plotting the battery degradation on it. I'll do the same on my ebike, once I hear how you like your setup!)

 

[RTIII]

RT, Wish I was there helping! I have a large collection of bike tools, assembled my fleet of bikes from bare frames, and make a nice 'Skinny Margarita' thing!

I am following your build and will probably follow in your foot steps, except I don't need the capabilities of the Satiator. I do want to be able to charge my 48V pack to 80%, so I will have to find a charger that does that.
Or build a variable voltage triggered relay to break power to the charger. Recommendations?

Which battery pack did you go with from em3ev? Seems like quick shipping for a boat...
I too am starting to question Luna... :x Has anyone measured a new pack from them?

(I work in tech, drive an EV and I'm plotting the battery degradation on it. I'll do the same on my ebike, once I hear how you like your setup!)

Hey Norton, would enjoy the help. WAY back in my youth I gained a lot of bike experience but it was so long ago... Yesterday, to get the crankset out of my bike I had to MAKE a wrench. Good thing I had bar stock and machine tools handy! I needed a long slot, longer than any end wrenches I had in that size, and narrower than the Crescent wrenches I had on hand. But I got the fastener out without problem. I only made one error: I didn't realize how the pedals attached and took them apart instead - and lost at least one ball bearing! Oops! ... Was planning on buying toe clips anyway!

Oh, one minor error but I'll get a chance to fix it soon: I took the chainring gear off to see how it mounts and such. While in there, a friend came over to work on his diesel Rabbit pickup truck and I got a little distracted and failed to reinstall a large diameter "gasket" that had fallen off unnoticed until I had it all together! I went to reinstall it right away, but couldn't figure out how to get the damned bar that the pedal mounts too off the motor without damaging it even though I barely put it on! ... The unit seems to work just fine (pedaling - no battery yet) without the gasket thing.

Meanwhile, the VLCD5 has FOUR not-used electrical connections on it: three in a row along the back and one straight down in the center. The one straight down looks like a female, full size USB port. The others look like 4-pin and probably are handbrake cut out right, and left and throttle in the center. ... I'll post photos later. I think I'm going to take it apart to change how the wires come out of it; I want to be able to take it off the bike when it's parked in vulnerable places and the existing wiring makes that problematic.

I still have yet to get my new wheels. At first Sta-Tru Wheels had indicated they'd make the wheels for me as a new product but then changed their minds. I called a local bike shop and their price is about $100 more than I had expected (they quoted $200) I figure I can buy two new rims, one young style, one old style, and, so long as the spoke count is the same, "relace" the one hub into the other rim! That would actually give me a left-over rim of late diameter (26) with a freewheel style - I could then sell that on ebay or something.

You might want to note my comments over on this other page about voltages and stuff, when thinking about a charger. Here's a link to that conversation - my last comment is pertinent to your remarks here.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88758

 

[KarlTheCool]

Here's the video that Biktrix promised a little while ago. Nothing amazing but some more info for those scrounging for it.
[youtube]P8FFOSwGLzU[/youtube]

 

[Norton]

... Was planning on buying toe clips anyway! ...

No, don't do it!! Toe Clips break ankle/knees. Go Clipless / Click-in pedals and shoes. That's what everyone uses now.... :lol:

More later...

 

[arthurtuxedo]

I'm thinking I'm going to probably end up buying from Lunacycle from their store in SF!

I didn't know they had a store in SF. Can't find any info about it on their website or on Google Maps. How do I find it?

 

[RTIII]

I'm thinking I'm going to probably end up buying from Lunacycle from their store in SF!

I didn't know they had a store in SF. Can't find any info about it on their website or on Google Maps. How do I find it?

Sorry, arthurtuxedo, apparently they STARTED in S.F. but have long since moved to the L.A. area, and forgot to remove materials about S.F. from their web site, so I was wrong about that.

 

[RTIII]

... Was planning on buying toe clips anyway! ...

No, don't do it!! Toe Clips break ankle/knees. Go Clipless / Click-in pedals and shoes. That's what everyone uses now.... :lol:

More later...

OH! Thanks for the heads-up. Never heard of click-in pedals and shoes, but if it requires special footware, it's not going to happen - I have a hard time finding shoes that fit now! However, the purpose of toe-clips is to be able to apply power on the upstroke as well as the down - at least, that's how I use them! ... It seems to me that any system that can do that will have a risk of trapping your feet.

Back some years ago when I commuted some 16 miles each way to work, I used them, an I'd leave them very lose so my foot could not get trapped. It only takes a bit of mental training to always pull back a little when removing your feet from the pedals! However, from what I recall, a frustration with the toe clips I had then was that they weren't ever deep enough - nobody makes them for my huge feet!

 

[arthurtuxedo]

I'm thinking I'm going to probably end up buying from Lunacycle from their store in SF!

I didn't know they had a store in SF. Can't find any info about it on their website or on Google Maps. How do I find it?

Sorry, arthurtuxedo, apparently they STARTED in S.F. but have long since moved to the L.A. area, and forgot to remove materials about S.F. from their web site, so I was wrong about that.

Okay that makes sense, that would have been a very stealthy store!

 

[Norton]

You can get Wide Mtn bike shoes now. You need them for the cleats with the new clipless pedals.
The deal with old style clips and straps is: if you and the bike crash and twist in opposite directions you could get your foot stuck and put your knee in big twist.

That's not possible with the new clipless pedals. They always pop loose. Some brands have adjustable tension for this release.

But in reality, you don't need to 'Pedal Circles' for max power with an ebike. If you mtn bike the rough stuff it's nice to keep you feet on the pedals until you want to release.

 

[Norton]

Here's the video that Biktrix promised a little while ago. Nothing amazing but some more info for those scrounging for it.

He said "this motor is capable of 60 volts".
I wonder if that is correct?
I read here that the controller can power up with a 52V pack but the motor does not.

 

[zamehan]

Hello,

Sorry, I am new to this. I would like to know if i buy the 500w 48v version do I have to put a 48v battery or can I put a 36v battery? Thanks!

 

[eyebyesickle]

Norton:

The motor will not work over around 54v... this person is mistaken in the video, probably quoting off the common knowledge that 48v systems can be run 52v, which in most cases is true with no real problem, but in this case, NO SPIN OVER 54v!

zamehan:

To keep it simple, yes, you need a 48v battery to match the 48v500w system.

 

[RTIII]

Norton:

The motor will not work over around 54v... this person is mistaken in the video, probably quoting off the common knowledge that 48v systems can be run 52v, which in most cases is true with no real problem, but in this case, NO SPIN OVER 54v!

zamehan:

To keep it simple, yes, you need a 48v battery to match the 48v500w system.

Hi eyebyesickle,

Yes, I've paid VERY careful attention to this point. The TSDZ2 "48v" system bugs out at anything OVER 54.6v, which, by the way, happens to be EXACTLY the official CHARGING voltage of a 13 cell stack. (4.2v X 13) I think they chose that cut-off very specifically... It's not a single tenth of a volt over what's provided by the float voltage of a 13s pack - and this was reported by more than one person earlier in this thread! (Please note that cell capacitance can keep a cell over 4.1v for a short time, but a FULLY CHARGED Lithium Ion cell is 4.1v, and NOT 4.2.)

And, of course, your advice to zamehan is correct.