New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[Elinx]

On the German forum I read (by Rutzki73 from EnerProf) Tongsheng is planning to change something with the maingear and spragclutch to improve pedaling without power. Maybe it has a positive influence too on the wearing out of the spragclutch/bearing, which in this new case is a bearing only and a seperated freewheel between gear and bearing (brown part).
Disadvantage could be that they don't use a standard bearing anymore, like the CSK30P is now.

 

[Chasse]

I bought a tsdz2 recently and worry i won't be able to flash the controller if it is the V2 version. How can i see the osf version on that new motor?

 

[houndlegs]

Hi everyone.
My first post on here, so hello.
This thread is so big, I'm hoping someone can either answer me or point me in the right direction.
I'd like to buy a TSDZ2, will probably get a 750w version with a supplied battery from PSW.
I want to know about the handlebar controller's, I'd like to alter the speed limit to 20 instead of 15 ish.
I've seen people accessing a hidden menu to alter things but I've only seen them doing it on the big central controller VLDC5. I'd prefer one of the controller's on the end of the handlebar, can you alter those the same way.
If it helps, I don't want a throttle, and I believe that means I don't need ebrakes fitted.
I'm in the UK if that makes any difference.

Many thanks

Phil

 

[Elinx]

I bought a tsdz2 recently and worry i won't be able to flash the controller if it is the V2 version. How can i see the osf version on that new motor?

For the V2 version of the controller there is no OSF, so you must stay with stock FW, but..............
imho the German webshop Enerprof is the only shop that sells the new non flashable controller.
Here are almost the same worries about the new controller. I have shared some info how to find out the version of the controller.

.... I'd like to alter the speed limit to 20 instead of 15 ish.
....

With every stock display and stock FW you can enter and change the speedlimit, no need for entering hidden settings as with vlcd5.
With OSF it is possible to remove that speedlimit setting on display and choose for a legal streetmode or offroad speed with a secret button sequence.

 

[houndlegs]

Elinx, thanks for that, I hadn't realised that. I've since seen that the big middle display has an option for a remote control, Id not mind that. I didn't want to be having to control the thing by having to reach into the middle of the handlebar.

 

[Akita]

I have V2 and tried to change speed with VLDC5 but failed.
For me, the engine pulled well up to about 20 km/h but never really good to 25 km/h.
I moved the magnet away so it did not affect and now I have power from the engine all the way up to 25 km/h
and even more if I want.
This at the price of no speedometer etc.
Anyone have the same experience?

 

[Elinx]

I have V2 and tried to change speed with VLDC5 but failed.....

I read somewhere, you must first enable the speedlimit to setup for a higher limit.
With disabled speedlimit you can't enter a new limit and it stays 25km/h

 

[Akita]

I have V2 and tried to change speed with VLDC5 but failed.....

I read somewhere, you must first enable the speedlimit to setup for a higher limit.
With disabled speedlimit you can't enter a new limit and it stays 25km/h

I have done it. No change.

 

[jbalat]

Thanks Elynx with those pictures from the German forum..
I assume the first bearing is also a sprag clutch..
Do we know what the actual bearings are or what the brown one looks like ?

I’ve been thinking if there is an easy way to redesign the existing motor to do this.

 

[Elinx]

.....
I assume the first bearing is also a sprag clutch..
Do we know what the actual bearings are or what the brown one looks like ?

I’ve been thinking if there is an easy way to redesign the existing motor to do this.

I think we know this for sure, if Tongsheng introduce this new maingear in the Tsdz2.
All info is in the German forum. I didn't found anywhere more about it.

 

[sysrq]

Anyone else ever had a non responsive buttons on VLCD6 display? After reconnecting the battery the buttons work again for a short period of time, sometimes for longer.

 

[eyebyesickle]

...... experience with Eco-Cycles Cooling Mod and can comment on the power handling limits?...

The cooling mod of Eco-Cycles is a metal plate to fill the 1.5 mm gap between motor and case.
In the wiki this gap is filled with heatconductive silicone pads.
For this mod you have to unmount the bare motor, but have the advantage of the better contact with the mass of the complete motorcase.

Another mod is to fill the 5 mm gap between bare motor and casecover with metal, heatconductive silicone pads or putty.
For this you only need to remove the cover, but that cover has less mass than the full case, so is less effective than the first solution, but in most cases it will be enough to reduce the temperature of the motor by the airflow when biking.

Here you can find some experiences with different heat mods.

Actually, the metal plate is just the lesser portion of the cooling mod from Eco Cycles. Out of curiosity, where did you get the information that it was just a metal plate from?

 

[Elinx]

.... the metal plate is just the lesser portion of the cooling mod from Eco Cycles.
.... where did you get the information ..

This is my assumption
On the website they sell the heatsink plate V2 and a thermal putty kit for cooling, so if the metal plate is the lesser part I think it is a combination of both. Maybe the bare motor will be dissambled and filled too, like with the wiki mod.
In that case, all airgaps will be filled for maximum effect.

 

[kamsai]

Hello everyone!

So, I've been doing some online research about TSDZ2 in the past few weeks, but since I'm still a bit uncertain about few things I thought it's better to make an account here and ask myself. Btw, this whole thread is so massive to read trought, so I'm sorry if I repeat some questions.

So I have this Kona Sutra 2020 bike for touring, and now I'd like to install a TSDZ2 motor in it.

But there are few questions:

1) The Kona Sutra has steel frame and it weights around 14kg, I'm 75kg. Most of the time I commute lightweight or without any extra load, but I'd like to have the possibility to make longer trips with all the camping stuff on (2x rear bags + 2 frontbags + tent on the rear rack). So yeah, the overall weight is quite heavy then, so is the 250W motor enough for such a load or should I just get the 500W version? For the 500W version I'd need some extra licence (~60€ / year), but otherwise it's ok.

2) There are 36v and 48v versions. I've read some posts that say how 48v version is overall better since it doesn't heat as much as the 36v version. Is there anything else good to know, or is the 48v verson just better "out of the box" ? (NOTE: It seems these versions have advantages/disadvantages when using custom firmwares etc, but see question 3).

3) I'm glad to see there's a very active culture around this motor with open source firmware and all the tinkering, hacking, etc. I'm definitely into that myself too, but for starters I'd just want to have the motor installed and make a few trips before going into that. The way I see it is that it's good to ride for while before making any modifications, so you can actually know how your tweaks are affecting (OR is there strong recommendations to install some new firmware even for the new setup? If so, any guides for those?)

BUT eventually I'd probably want to deep dive into this modding more. So what do I need for that? Do I need to buy anything extra cables etc to get custom firmwares installed? I could order those same time I order the motor and the battery.

4) Any recommendations for the battery size? I'm probably planning to buy from pswpower.com, so they have these:

48V 20AH = 960Wh - too overkill?
so either
48V 15AH = 720Wh or 48V 13AH = 624Wh sounds better?
Or then for the 36V version 20AH = 720Wh sounds the best option?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Elinx]

....
1) The Kona Sutra .... the overall weight is quite heavy then, so is the 250W motor enough for such a load or should I just get the 500W version? For the 500W version I'd need some extra licence (~60€ / year), but otherwise it's ok.

You realize that with 500W continu power the bike is not legal for the EU law, imho an extra license isn't enough to ride it legal. In that case your bike needs a typeapproval and registration for speedpedelec (45km/h) too.
I don't know how strict the rules are maintained if you keep the speed at 25km/h with 500W. There is no size difference or other outer signs, compared with 250W tsdz2.

2) There are 36v and 48v versions. I've read some posts that say how 48v version is overall better since it doesn't heat as much as the 36v version. Is there anything else good to know, or is the 48v verson just better "out of the box" ? (NOTE: It seems these versions have advantages/disadvantages when using custom firmwares ..

imho there is no disadvantage or difference flashing OSF on 36V or 48V tsdz2. Both are good, but indeed the 48V could have more power and could behave better in your case.
Heating could be a problem with all tsdz2 versions, because the heatmanagement is not that good. You can improve this with filling the airgaps between bare motor and housing. (wiki and topic).
Also a adding a temperature sensor keeps the heat in proportions by lowering the power if needed. (in that case ordering the 8pin throttleversion made this easier to add)
Also overvoltaging (48V for 36V tsdz2 or 54V for 48V tsdz2) could help to keep the same max. power with lower current through the coils, which is possible with OSF by setting a power and current limit.
Other disadvantage with Tsdz2 is mechanical and play, wich you can improve a bit beforehand with 2 extra bearings on the spindle.

3) ... open source firmware .... is there strong recommendations to install some new firmware even for the new setup? If so, any guides for those?)

imho you can flash OSF, it behaves a lot better than stock, but I can imagine that you first want stock FW for a while, so you can compare stock FW vs OSF. Before OSF make a backup of your stock fw, so you are safe if not satisfied.

.... want to deep dive into this modding more. So what do I need for that? Do I need to buy anything extra cables etc to get custom firmwares installed? I could order those same time I order the motor and the battery.

If you keep your original display, you only need a STlinkv2 clone (and maybe some small shrinktube for covering the sockets). Read the OSF wiki and see this topic.

4) .... battery size? ....

Wh is size, weight, distance and charging time, so you need a compromise for your personal use.

 

[gfmoore]

What a fantastic answer. This should be stickified

 

[Matze_Senpai]

i have a brass gear lying around that i havent installed yet , however i plan on doing so in the future.
do i need some specific grease for it? i could not find any information on it
thanks

 

[kamsai]

....
1) The Kona Sutra .... the overall weight is quite heavy then, so is the 250W motor enough for such a load or should I just get the 500W version? For the 500W version I'd need some extra licence (~60€ / year), but otherwise it's ok.

You realize that with 500W continu power the bike is not legal for the EU law, imho an extra license isn't enough to ride it legal. In that case your bike needs a typeapproval and registration for speedpedelec (45km/h) too.
I don't know how strict the rules are maintained if you keep the speed at 25km/h with 500W. There is no size difference or other outer signs, compared with 250W tsdz2.

2) There are 36v and 48v versions. I've read some posts that say how 48v version is overall better since it doesn't heat as much as the 36v version. Is there anything else good to know, or is the 48v verson just better "out of the box" ? (NOTE: It seems these versions have advantages/disadvantages when using custom firmwares ..

imho there is no disadvantage or difference flashing OSF on 36V or 48V tsdz2. Both are good, but indeed the 48V could have more power and could behave better in your case.
Heating could be a problem with all tsdz2 versions, because the heatmanagement is not that good. You can improve this with filling the airgaps between bare motor and housing. (wiki and topic).
Also a adding a temperature sensor keeps the heat in proportions by lowering the power if needed. (in that case ordering the 8pin throttleversion made this easier to add)
Also overvoltaging (48V for 36V tsdz2 or 54V for 48V tsdz2) could help to keep the same max. power with lower current through the coils, which is possible with OSF by setting a power and current limit.
Other disadvantage with Tsdz2 is mechanical and play, wich you can improve a bit beforehand with 2 extra bearings on the spindle.

3) ... open source firmware .... is there strong recommendations to install some new firmware even for the new setup? If so, any guides for those?)

imho you can flash OSF, it behaves a lot better than stock, but I can imagine that you first want stock FW for a while, so you can compare stock FW vs OSF. Before OSF make a backup of your stock fw, so you are safe if not satisfied.

.... want to deep dive into this modding more. So what do I need for that? Do I need to buy anything extra cables etc to get custom firmwares installed? I could order those same time I order the motor and the battery.

If you keep your original display, you only need a STlinkv2 clone (and maybe some small shrinktube for covering the sockets). Read the OSF wiki and see this topic.

4) .... battery size? ....

Wh is size, weight, distance and charging time, so you need a compromise for your personal use.

Thank you very much for this detailed and long reply! Everything is much more clear now. I'll try to order the 250w 48V version and hopefully next month I have everything set up and running

 

[Elinx]

.... I'll try to order the 250w 48V version ....

imho it isn't possible to order such a configuration on a webshop

There are two motortypes: 36V and 48V 4000RPM
36V is sold as 250W and 350W, but are the same
48V is sold as 500W and 750W and are also the same

Do you mean to order a 36V Tsdz2 and a battery of 48V for overvoltage (5000RPM).
Or do you mean to order a 48V Tsdz2 and keep the power limited in the first place.
imho the last option has most powerfull options if needed.

 

[endlessolli]

The Torque Sensor of one of my TSDZ2 did not work anymore, so I attempted to repair it:
I peeled off the black stuff and saw that the Hall Sensor pins / solder pads were torn off.
So I ordered a std. 049E lin Hall sensor off ebay and solderd it back on.
-> Torque Sensor works again! It seems to be even more sensitive than with the old Hall sensor (-> bigger range of ADC values)

In case it helps anyone, I drew a circuit diagram from the little PCB:


(I could not find the 2 SMD transistor like things in the Internet, so I just put the names as printed on them.
Also wrt the capacitors I have no idea of the actual values)

By the way: @mspider65 s Project is a great help for such troubleshooting attempts of the TSDZ2, as many values are realtime visible in his app.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=103318&hilit=tsdz2

 

[gfmoore]

@endlessolli - Cool

Here is a (possibly useless ) question that by now I know I should know the answer to.

I have a 48v bare motor that I bought some months ago for experimenting with and a controller and I have a 36v spare battery.

If I flash the motor (with mbrusa version) can I run the motor with 36volt battery?

If not I can run a cable from my 48 volt battery (that incidentally drives a flashed 36 volt motor :sigh

 

[Elinx]

.....
-> Torque Sensor works again! It seems to be even more sensitive than with the old Hall sensor (-> bigger range of ADC values)

In case it helps anyone, I drew a circuit diagram.....

Maybe you could add this solution to the TSDZ2 wiki too.

....

I have a 48v bare motor ....
If I flash the motor (with mbrusa version) can I run the motor with 36volt battery?....

Yes, this is possible, but max. rpm is lowering to 3000 (vs 4000), so with higher cadences you need the fieldweakening.

 

[gfmoore]

:thumb: thanks.

 

[dameri]

The Torque Sensor of one of my TSDZ2 did not work anymore, so I attempted to repair it:
I peeled off the black stuff and saw that the Hall Sensor pins / solder pads were torn off.
So I ordered a std. 049E lin Hall sensor off ebay and solderd it back on.
-> Torque Sensor works again! It seems to be even more sensitive than with the old Hall sensor (-> bigger range of ADC values)

In case it helps anyone, I drew a circuit diagram from the little PCB:


(I could not find the 2 SMD transistor like things in the Internet, so I just put the names as printed on them.
Also wrt the capacitors I have no idea of the actual values)

By the way: @mspider65 s Project is a great help for such troubleshooting attempts of the TSDZ2, as many values are realtime visible in his app.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=103318&hilit=tsdz2

Do you have dircect link to ebay?

 

[endlessolli]

...
So I ordered a std. 049E lin Hall sensor off ebay and solderd it back on.
-> Torque Sensor works again! It seems to be even more sensitive than with the old Hall sensor (-> bigger range of ADC values)
...

Do you have dircect link to ebay?

This is what I bought:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/163906083323

To clarify: This is typewise an exact copy of the Hall Sensor that I replaced.
I attribute the higher sensitivity to a wide quality spread of these Hall-Sensors - so I just got lucky.
There are also reports on the sensitivity spread in the net: https://softsolder.com/2013/08/14/ebay-49e-hall-effect-sensors-parameter-spread/