New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"
- Thread starter larsottar
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spockie
10 mW
ilu said:
This is where I find it hard to understand about torque sensing. Surely when you reach maximum cadence, e.g. 90rpm, does the motor not supply maximum power. So pedalling slowly, you get less assistance from motor.
At the moment I'm torn between buying either the 36V and 48V motor. As this thread is over 300 messages I've only read snippets of it. If I get the 36V motor now, will I be regretting it when I come to replace my battery with a 48V type? Should I be worried about overheating and not having more torque?
Sorry for all the questions as coming from a BBS02 motor this is a new learning curve for me.
spockie
10 mW
Elinx said:
That's an interesting workaround. If the boost converter is not too big nor expensive I might go for this. As a guess my battery needs replacing in a year or two and this can be a stop gap until then. Thanks.
spockie said:
The motor power is mainly determined by the torque on the cranks eg. force on the pedals, not cadence (although with OSF you can also choose a cadence based or hybrid power output). The maximum speed of the motor is limited by the battery voltage and with the same battery voltage you get higher maximum speed with a 36V motor than with a 48V motor, because of the different windings. The motor speed is connected by gears to the chainring speed, and when you pedal faster than the limit, you are spinning the chainring faster than the motor is able to spin, and thus the power output drops to zero.
I believe the heating difference between the different voltage rated motors is mostly theoretical, I don't remember that anyone here would have made any measurements regarding that. Torque difference might be noticeable but I haven't tested that myself. As I said I'm running 36V motor with 52V battery and very satisfied with it, the cadence support is good even with stock firmware, I get plenty enough torque for my needs and I have never gotten the motor to overheat (I do have heat-sinking mods and a heat sensor). I would recommend this combination for everyone, but of course if you want to build a more complicated system for a slight gain in max torque but a loss in efficiency, that is an option as well. And using a DC-DC converter does have the added benefit of being able to supply higher voltage also when your battery's state of charge and thus voltage drops, so you get similar performance throughout the whole discharge cycle.
Request for advice.
I have just fitted the 48v 500W TSDZ2 to my Giant Cypress DX, which I used in December-February to do the Carreterra Austral in Chile.
I am nearly 70 and reasonably fit. I live in S. Spain and would like to incorporate a bit of regular exercise in my life so want to optimise the bike setup for a weekly commute to town and back with my shopping.
Town is 400 meters lower, and 11.2 km away, from where I live and is mostly an even gradient.
I have done the commute several times over the last few years with my Tonaro Big Hit, in which I would be climbing in granny gear with maximum assistence all the way, which would use up most of the battery and need a charge (36 volt 10Ah) before the next commute.
The Tonaro is an awkward heavy beast, which is why I'm planning to use the Giant, which I loved using in the US, Mexico and Chile, but don't want to overheat the motor or knacker a new battery (I plan to buy or build a 52V large capacity) or overheat the TSDZ2 if I really have to fit a smaller chainring.
I have ordered the firmware flashing dongle and am Computer-literate and am probably going to go the OSF route, but aren't sure if I ought to order a smaller chainring too.
I hope this question hasn't been asked too many times before: I have Googled, honest.
I have just fitted the 48v 500W TSDZ2 to my Giant Cypress DX, which I used in December-February to do the Carreterra Austral in Chile.
I am nearly 70 and reasonably fit. I live in S. Spain and would like to incorporate a bit of regular exercise in my life so want to optimise the bike setup for a weekly commute to town and back with my shopping.
Town is 400 meters lower, and 11.2 km away, from where I live and is mostly an even gradient.
I have done the commute several times over the last few years with my Tonaro Big Hit, in which I would be climbing in granny gear with maximum assistence all the way, which would use up most of the battery and need a charge (36 volt 10Ah) before the next commute.
The Tonaro is an awkward heavy beast, which is why I'm planning to use the Giant, which I loved using in the US, Mexico and Chile, but don't want to overheat the motor or knacker a new battery (I plan to buy or build a 52V large capacity) or overheat the TSDZ2 if I really have to fit a smaller chainring.
I have ordered the firmware flashing dongle and am Computer-literate and am probably going to go the OSF route, but aren't sure if I ought to order a smaller chainring too.
I hope this question hasn't been asked too many times before: I have Googled, honest.
Chainring size is not something that would straight away determine wether the motor overheats or not. First of all I recommend you install a heat sensor with the OSF so you don't gave to worry about it as the OSF will limit power if the motor heats too much. If you don't want to do that, then perhaps limit the battery current to something safer like 12A.
Then of course it is best that most of the time you are able to pedal with a comfortable cadence, when the motor is also running fast enough to work more efficiently. It seems that Giant Cypress DX comes with 28/44 chainrings and 11-34 cassette. If you are going to use only one chainring in the front with the TSDZ2, most comfortable size might be something in the middle of those two original sizes, around 36t. With that you can still reach about 35km/h on the biggest gear and also have a reasonably light ratio on the smallest.
Then of course it is best that most of the time you are able to pedal with a comfortable cadence, when the motor is also running fast enough to work more efficiently. It seems that Giant Cypress DX comes with 28/44 chainrings and 11-34 cassette. If you are going to use only one chainring in the front with the TSDZ2, most comfortable size might be something in the middle of those two original sizes, around 36t. With that you can still reach about 35km/h on the biggest gear and also have a reasonably light ratio on the smallest.
Thanks for that. Today I added (for a quick test) a 12 volt 8Ah motorbike battery in series with the Li-Po 36v that I've taken from the Tonaro, and on a relatively flat 6 km I was pleased to find it assisted me smoothly and adequately. I still found I was in bottom gear quite a lot, regardless of power setting, so I'll try my shopping route of 5% gradient over 9.7km and see if how the gearing suits me.ilu said:
spockie
10 mW
Thanks @ilu and @Elinx for your helpful answers.
Just one other thing I tried to find on ebay for a dc to dc converter with the correct rating without much success. Would it be possible if someone could give me a link for one please?
Just one other thing I tried to find on ebay for a dc to dc converter with the correct rating without much success. Would it be possible if someone could give me a link for one please?
Bought a kit, fitted it to a tandem but alas no "pedal assist". Throttle works. Contacted Chinese company and they agreed to send me a replacement torque sensor if I paid postage. Agreed. Whilst trying to remove torque sensor I removed the small circlip on RHS (drive side). I pushed on end of shaft (finger pressure) and shaft pushed fully out on LHS so I could remove the oil seal, small bearing and circlip easily. Is this right? I have not seen this described anywhere.
Also are the 3 small springs located in the oval slots or the round slots? I have seen photos showing the springs in both positions.
Also are the 3 small springs located in the oval slots or the round slots? I have seen photos showing the springs in both positions.
spockie
10 mW
Thank you, very useful. Since they are inexpensive, I'll get one to try.Elinx said:
Hi, I've been grappling with the OSF instructions for some time now with a view to increasing the upper limit on cadence on one of my TSDZ2 motors. I've built the STlink to USB, seemingly successfully because it read the Program memory, Date memory and Option Byte tabs from my TSDZ2.
Then I tried to do the 'Java bits'. I've never used Java, it's never been installed on my laptop and all the online guides for it seem to make it sound very unfriendly for someone who frankly sees it as a foreign language. I have downloaded Java JRE, but that's as far as I got, it's completely opaque to me. I haven't the first idea which bits I need, how to get hold of them or make them work.
Maybe it's simple and I'm missing something. In the absence of some kind soul taking pity and guiding me out of the wilderness I may simply do as Eco-bikes suggest on their website, quote
"One [option] is to install a stock TSDZ2 motor firmware profile. We have an archive of them all. Note that if you flash a 36v motor with a 48v or 52v firmware profile, it will spin slightly faster and support higher cadence RPM. You get more of an increase in torque up to the RPM limit as opposed to increasing the RPM limit, however."
This sounds relatively easy and at first it seems to promise an uplift in the top end of the cadence profile. But is this what they really mean, it's a little contradictory. First it says it will spin slightly faster, but then implies it won't increase the RPM limit, has anyone tried this and can report back? Will the finished installation work with my 36V battery?
TIA..
Then I tried to do the 'Java bits'. I've never used Java, it's never been installed on my laptop and all the online guides for it seem to make it sound very unfriendly for someone who frankly sees it as a foreign language. I have downloaded Java JRE, but that's as far as I got, it's completely opaque to me. I haven't the first idea which bits I need, how to get hold of them or make them work.
Maybe it's simple and I'm missing something. In the absence of some kind soul taking pity and guiding me out of the wilderness I may simply do as Eco-bikes suggest on their website, quote
"One [option] is to install a stock TSDZ2 motor firmware profile. We have an archive of them all. Note that if you flash a 36v motor with a 48v or 52v firmware profile, it will spin slightly faster and support higher cadence RPM. You get more of an increase in torque up to the RPM limit as opposed to increasing the RPM limit, however."
This sounds relatively easy and at first it seems to promise an uplift in the top end of the cadence profile. But is this what they really mean, it's a little contradictory. First it says it will spin slightly faster, but then implies it won't increase the RPM limit, has anyone tried this and can report back? Will the finished installation work with my 36V battery?
TIA..
If you want a higher cadence with a 36V engine, you must flash a 48V profile AND use a 48V battery.RichardPH said:
The reason for that other profile is that the 36V stock FW won't run above 42V, so you must remove that Voltage limit.
With 36V engine, 36V battery, 48V FW profile, nothing will happen.
You haven't told what exactly is the problem with OSF and Java. I assume you have followed the wiki.
In that case it is important to install SDCC and STMP inside the root of your PC.
STMP has a grafical interface for backup/restore the stock firmware.
But that version must be closed to use the Java gui which you can start with the JAR file.
If JRE is installed the right way, the OSF configurator will startup for editing the engine settings.
I haven't got anywhere near the actual OSF, it's the Java aspect that has me defeated me. I followed the wiki as far as step 5 when after searching through the sub directories I found JavaConfigurator.jar, but clicking on it didn't lead me anywhere recognisable [to someone who has never done anything like this]. I think the problem is that I don't know what I don't know, and asking the right question is difficult.
I have a tsdz2 36v 350W version about 1,000kms on it going fine so far.
I bought 2 different 36v 10Ah battery packs for it so I could have one on charge whilst riding with the other.
One pack is 18650 10s4p https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/124474635082
The other is 21700 10s2p https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000918734449.html
When I ride with the 18650 pack it doesn't seem to have as much power to the motor, normally I ride on PAS level 1 on the flats and PAS level 2 up the hills on the 21700 pack, but I have to use PAS level 3 on the 18650 pack to get the same feel.
I checked the voltage when charged with a multi-meter and both packs are just under 42v.
The battery level indicator on the LCD doesn't budge up hills when either pack is freshly charged, but I can really feel the difference between the packs. My LCD is the little XH-18 which has a green battery icon to display the charge state, I don't know how accurate that is, it might be masking a voltage drop.
Also the 18650 pack seems to cut out when the voltage gets down to about 34volts under load which strikes me as a bit high, the 21700 pack doesn't seem to want to cut out, so I usually charge it when it gets down to around 30v.
Is it possible that the BMS in the 18650 pack is somehow limiting the power to the motor but the LCD meter is not showing it?
I bought 2 different 36v 10Ah battery packs for it so I could have one on charge whilst riding with the other.
One pack is 18650 10s4p https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/124474635082
The other is 21700 10s2p https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000918734449.html
When I ride with the 18650 pack it doesn't seem to have as much power to the motor, normally I ride on PAS level 1 on the flats and PAS level 2 up the hills on the 21700 pack, but I have to use PAS level 3 on the 18650 pack to get the same feel.
I checked the voltage when charged with a multi-meter and both packs are just under 42v.
The battery level indicator on the LCD doesn't budge up hills when either pack is freshly charged, but I can really feel the difference between the packs. My LCD is the little XH-18 which has a green battery icon to display the charge state, I don't know how accurate that is, it might be masking a voltage drop.
Also the 18650 pack seems to cut out when the voltage gets down to about 34volts under load which strikes me as a bit high, the 21700 pack doesn't seem to want to cut out, so I usually charge it when it gets down to around 30v.
Is it possible that the BMS in the 18650 pack is somehow limiting the power to the motor but the LCD meter is not showing it?
I have a win 10 laptop. I wanted to share a screenshot with you of what happens when I clicked javaconfigurator.jar file, but I can't make the image utility work. Sigh, I never felt quite so frustrated with tech as right now. That's probably an exaggeration TBH.
Longhand description. It gives me folders called 'Controller' and 'META-INF' with a whole list of 'TSDZ2_confiigurator$1.class' files underneath. Clicking on any of these or sub files in the folders isn't leading me to the grey TSDZ2 parameter configurator screen, I've only seen that in the guides.
gfmoore
100 W
Don't give up, I've just come back from a ride using osf and it is well worth the pain. Sorry I cant help as I use an 850c display, but you will get there. 
gfmoore
100 W
Just a thought but I assume you have the Java runtime loaded (jre) and that nothing is blocking a java application being run? Tell me where you downloaded the java file from and I'll give it a whirl on my win 10 laptop and see what gives.
Bigwheel
1 kW
Enough of the tech talk, this thread needs some picture is worth a thousand words.
This is where I got Java JRE, I chose the 64 bit offline version mainly because I use Chrome and that doesn't support Java
https://java.com/en/download/windows_manual.jsp?host=java.com&locale=en-GB
It's installed in the root of C: as a complete folder.
thanks to those who've taken the time to try and assist
gfmoore
100 W
Sorry I meant the web location (URL) of the configuration program itself. 
I downloaded it from here
https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-1/releases/tag/v20.1C.1-VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18
I don't know what a tar.gz file is, so I downloaded the zip version. Upon double clicking javaconfigurator file Windows says "windows cannot complete the extraction, destination file could not be created"
https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-1/releases/tag/v20.1C.1-VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18
I don't know what a tar.gz file is, so I downloaded the zip version. Upon double clicking javaconfigurator file Windows says "windows cannot complete the extraction, destination file could not be created"
gfmoore
100 W
A tar.gz file is a Linux zipped archive file. However, tomorrow I shall look at it and see what's what. If you want I think a program called 7Zip might be able to see what's inside. I think?
