New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[Waynemarlow]

The problem with cadence sensor bikes is that they keep spinning for 1-2 seconds after yous top pedaling. So they're not like a normal bike. They actually introduce a problem shifting, so a gear sensor is crucial.

OK I stand corrected, yes it does have a cadence sensor but the motor is not reliant on the PAS but torque and thus the motor will stop spinning almost instantly unlike the Bafung series.

Are we seeing some differences in the 500W and 750W versions software ? I hope we don't get into the situation Bafung are in with their throttle problems.

 

[casainho]

Are we seeing some differences in the 500W and 750W versions software ? I hope we don't get into the situation Bafung are in with their throttle problems.

We know is just the same motor and motor controller. The difference should be that 500W version is configured on firmware to control the current to a max of 10 amps while the other 750W, to control max of 15 amps (this for 48V battery).

 

[hobbyvac]

There must be some variability with the TSDZ2 systems regarding how fast the motor assist turns off. With my 36 volt unit, the motor runs for another second or more after you stop pedaling. This makes it awkward to shift sometimes and a little scary when you are entering a tight turn and you expect the motor to shut off but it doesn't.

Some people say it powers of almost instantly but mine has a one to one and a half second delay. I don't know if its based on crank position (one full turn) or time but it could be shortened. I assume this delay is to keep the motor from cycling on and off too much if there's short interruptions in your cadence?

 

[casainho]

There must be some variability with the TSDZ2 systems regarding how fast the motor assist turns off. With my 36 volt unit, the motor runs for another second or more after you stop pedaling. This makes it awkward to shift sometimes and a little scary when you are entering a tight turn and you expect the motor to shut off but it doesn't.

Some people say it powers of almost instantly but mine has a one to one and a half second delay. I don't know if its based on crank position (one full turn) or time but it could be shortened. I assume this delay is to keep the motor from cycling on and off too much if there's short interruptions in your cadence?

I have public shared my original firmware file, maybe you can try read and backup yours and try my file. Maybe there are different versions of firmware... Luckily we can backup the original firmware of each controller and try others.

 

[cresny]

FYI, i love my nuvinci cvt hub, but does not shift at all under load. The problem is, even if the motor cuts out. You’re still spinning the pedals which is still spinning enough to cause the nuvinci to not shift.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, because I have the 350W moter + Nuvinci 360 and haven't noticed this. I have noticed that the hub does not shift fully from high to low when stationary -- I have to put slght forward pressure on the crank in these instances -- but this has nothing to do with the motor. If you are shifting while not pedaling then I guess that's similar to what I'm experiencing while stationary. Otherwise, for me, the hub feels very natural and is a perfect compliment to the TSDZ2.

 

[gggplaya]

FYI, i love my nuvinci cvt hub, but does not shift at all under load. The problem is, even if the motor cuts out. You’re still spinning the pedals which is still spinning enough to cause the nuvinci to not shift.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, because I have the 350W moter + Nuvinci 360 and haven't noticed this. I have noticed that the hub does not shift fully from high to low when stationary -- I have to put slght forward pressure on the crank in these instances -- but this has nothing to do with the motor. If you are shifting while not pedaling then I guess that's similar to what I'm experiencing while stationary. Otherwise, for me, the hub feels very natural and is a perfect compliment to the TSDZ2.

I have the N380 and it's extremely difficult to shift under pedaling load to the point I feel like I'll break it, regardless if the motor is on or off. Let off the pedals and it shifts with ease. That has nothing to do with the TSDZ2.

 

[jur]

I bought a 48V/500W TSDZ2 from @eyebeyesickle and installed it this weekend on my wife's Moulton APB. I have a BBS02 on my Moulton APB.

My BBS02's original firmware settings have been completely reconfigured; the original settings were frankly awful - various PAS levels had not only power levels associated, but speed limits as well which was for my type of cycling really totally useless. I am a reasonably strong rider; I wanted a bad weather bike and the Moulton APB with its full suspension is ideal for the mid motor conversion, making all extra weight fully suspended. So I configured it to just give increasing power levels for each PAS level, but no speed limits anywhere. The result is the natural bicycle feel is retained; the difference is that the riding becomes a little easier, as if a you have strong tailwind: Slight uphills become level, level becomes a slight downhill, and headwinds disappear. The pedalling still feels almost exactly as before, just a little easier, or much easier if I pick a higher power level. So I get a constant power added to whatever I am pedaling.

The TSDZ2, on the other hand, is very nice with the progressive power added as I put more torque on the pedals. Earlier reports in this thread said that the torque sensor is more like an on-off switch, but I can verify it's a proper proportional torque added to what I pedal. A real torque multiplier.

Overall, I think my programming of the BBS02 is more "bicycle-like" than the TSDZ2; but the variable power added to my effort from the TSDZ2 is very handy too. In some cases the BBS02 would be better, for example when I feel tired, I can ease off my own effort but the BBS02 keeps giving the same. On the TSDZ2 that effort would be dialed down too, perhaps necessitating selecting a higher level of torque multiplication.

 

[casainho]

I bought a 48V/500W TSDZ2 from @eyebeyesickle and installed it this weekend on my wife's Moulton APB. I have a BBS02 on my Moulton APB.

My BBS02's original firmware settings have been completely reconfigured; the original settings were frankly awful - various PAS levels had not only power levels associated, but speed limits as well which was for my type of cycling really totally useless. I am a reasonably strong rider; I wanted a bad weather bike and the Moulton APB with its full suspension is ideal for the mid motor conversion, making all extra weight fully suspended. So I configured it to just give increasing power levels for each PAS level, but no speed limits anywhere. The result is the natural bicycle feel is retained; the difference is that the riding becomes a little easier, as if a you have strong tailwind: Slight uphills become level, level becomes a slight downhill, and headwinds disappear. The pedalling still feels almost exactly as before, just a little easier, or much easier if I pick a higher power level. So I get a constant power added to whatever I am pedaling.

The TSDZ2, on the other hand, is very nice with the progressive power added as I put more torque on the pedals. Earlier reports in this thread said that the torque sensor is more like an on-off switch, but I can verify it's a proper proportional torque added to what I pedal. A real torque multiplier.

Overall, I think my programming of the BBS02 is more "bicycle-like" than the TSDZ2; but the variable power added to my effort from the TSDZ2 is very handy too. In some cases the BBS02 would be better, for example when I feel tired, I can ease off my own effort but the BBS02 keeps giving the same. On the TSDZ2 that effort would be dialed down too, perhaps necessitating selecting a higher level of torque multiplication.

TSDZ2 also has a PAS in addition to the torque sensor, with that it should do "human power" algorithm that is output = pedal cadence * pedal torque.

With our OpenSource firmware, we will be able to implement PAS mode only, by ignoring the torque signal - that is another advantage of developing our own firmware.

To say the true, my little son 7 years old ebike has a bottom bracket torque sensor but I ended up to configure our firmware to run PAS mode so is like what you describe - which is much easier for him to ride the ebike.
BUT, since our firmware mixes torque and PAS signals (uses the max value of both), at startup the torque sensor signal is higher and he gets the motor help as if is a torque sensor and after having cadence, the cadence value will be higher than torque and system works like PAS only. This is a unique feature we could implement on TSDZ2, having the best of both worlds: torque sensor (for startup) + PAS.

I am blocked on developing the firmware for TSDZ2 because there are some math advanced trigonometry to get motor run very efficient and silent, which I didn't figure yet. If someone could help on this....

On the TSDZ2 that effort would be dialed down too, perhaps necessitating selecting a higher level of torque multiplication.

I see, using torque sensor just like a trigger, min value of torque sensor could output a constant torque to the motor. Again, totally possible but only if we develop it.

 

[jur]

I am blocked on developing the firmware for TSDZ2 because there are some math advanced trigonometry to get motor run very efficient and silent, which I didn't figure yet. If someone could help on this....

I could have a go at solving the math puzzle. But I need starting info, theory and such.

 

[daenny]

I bought a 48V/500W TSDZ2 from @eyebeyesickle and installed it this weekend on my wife's Moulton APB. I have a BBS02 on my Moulton APB.

My BBS02's original firmware settings have been completely reconfigured; the original settings were frankly awful - various PAS levels had not only power levels associated, but speed limits as well which was for my type of cycling really totally useless. I am a reasonably strong rider; I wanted a bad weather bike and the Moulton APB with its full suspension is ideal for the mid motor conversion, making all extra weight fully suspended. So I configured it to just give increasing power levels for each PAS level, but no speed limits anywhere. The result is the natural bicycle feel is retained; the difference is that the riding becomes a little easier, as if a you have strong tailwind: Slight uphills become level, level becomes a slight downhill, and headwinds disappear. The pedalling still feels almost exactly as before, just a little easier, or much easier if I pick a higher power level. So I get a constant power added to whatever I am pedaling.

The TSDZ2, on the other hand, is very nice with the progressive power added as I put more torque on the pedals. Earlier reports in this thread said that the torque sensor is more like an on-off switch, but I can verify it's a proper proportional torque added to what I pedal. A real torque multiplier.

Overall, I think my programming of the BBS02 is more "bicycle-like" than the TSDZ2; but the variable power added to my effort from the TSDZ2 is very handy too. In some cases the BBS02 would be better, for example when I feel tired, I can ease off my own effort but the BBS02 keeps giving the same. On the TSDZ2 that effort would be dialed down too, perhaps necessitating selecting a higher level of torque multiplication.

TSDZ2 also has a PAS in addition to the torque sensor, with that it should do "human power" algorithm that is output = pedal cadence * pedal torque.

With our OpenSource firmware, we will be able to implement PAS mode only, by ignoring the torque signal - that is another advantage of developing our own firmware.

To say the true, my little son 7 years old ebike has a bottom bracket torque sensor but I ended up to configure our firmware to run PAS mode so is like what you describe - which is much easier for him to ride the ebike.
BUT, since our firmware mixes torque and PAS signals (uses the max value of both), at startup the torque sensor signal is higher and he gets the motor help as if is a torque sensor and after having cadence, the cadence value will be higher than torque and system works like PAS only. This is a unique feature we could implement on TSDZ2, having the best of both worlds: torque sensor (for startup) + PAS.

I am blocked on developing the firmware for TSDZ2 because there are some math advanced trigonometry to get motor run very efficient and silent, which I didn't figure yet. If someone could help on this....

On the TSDZ2 that effort would be dialed down too, perhaps necessitating selecting a higher level of torque multiplication.

I see, using torque sensor just like a trigger, min value of torque sensor could output a constant torque to the motor. Again, totally possible but only if we develop it.

I am currently extremely busy at work and at the moment the TSDZ2 is my primary bike, so I first need to fix my second bike before I would be willing to take my other bike apart.

@hurzhurz did already some analysis on the display-motor and motor-display communication:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&hilit=pinout&start=175#p1238105

Are you aware of the VESC (https://github.com/vedderb/bldc)? He implemented FOC and other nice things for an opensource brushless controller, maybe you can look at that implementation for inspiration? It's aimed for electric skateboards, but I am running that one in my other bike with a teensy as pre-controller.

Edit: link correct post

 

[casainho]

I am blocked on developing the firmware for TSDZ2 because there are some math advanced trigonometry to get motor run very efficient and silent, which I didn't figure yet. If someone could help on this....

I could have a go at solving the math puzzle. But I need starting info, theory and such.

THANKS!!

Please visit the development thread were we did put links for an app note discussing and we discussed some ideas for the math: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&e=1&view=unread#p1375153

 

[cj0]

What is the no-load current and power consumption of a 36V TSDZ2 (in mA and VA)?
Were these values measured without a display attached (green+white wires connected) or which display was connected?
And was the backlight of that display enabled or disabled?

 

[casainho]

@hurzhurz did already some analysis on the display-motor and motor-display communication:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&hilit=pinout&start=175#p1238105

Are you aware of the VESC (https://github.com/vedderb/bldc)? He implemented FOC and other nice things for an opensource brushless controller, maybe you can look at that implementation for inspiration? It's aimed for electric skateboards, but I am running that one in my other bike with a teensy as pre-controller.

Thanks for that info on LCD!!! I will need it

About VESC, yes!! It is top technology and OpenSource. I learned a lot with it and other OpenSource firmwares for motor control like Shane Colton documentation and firmware.
TSDZ2 and Kunteng controllers use simplified hardware, to be cheap, and some tricks/simplification that I never saw a mention online -- it is some really nice puzzles that Chinese developers did!! They are up front on price optimized controllers that work well, running the motor in a very power efficient way (I mean this specific controllers, not others from 6 years old ago like square wave/6 steps/block commutation).

 

[John and Cecil]

There must be some variability with the TSDZ2 systems regarding how fast the motor assist turns off. With my 36 volt unit, the motor runs for another second or more after you stop pedaling. This makes it awkward to shift sometimes and a little scary when you are entering a tight turn and you expect the motor to shut off but it doesn't.

Some people say it powers of almost instantly but mine has a one to one and a half second delay. I don't know if its based on crank position (one full turn) or time but it could be shortened. I assume this delay is to keep the motor from cycling on and off too much if there's short interruptions in your cadence?

I don't know if this will help you but it can't hurt to try. The next time you turn on your bike do so while riding it very, very slowly. Pedal steadily about 10-15 rpms. Do this for about 10 seconds after the screen initializes. This will calibrate your motor to not assist when moving the pedals slowly, perhaps it will help it shut down a bit quicker too.

 

[hobbyvac]

There must be some variability with the TSDZ2 systems regarding how fast the motor assist turns off. With my 36 volt unit, the motor runs for another second or more after you stop pedaling. This makes it awkward to shift sometimes and a little scary when you are entering a tight turn and you expect the motor to shut off but it doesn't.

Some people say it powers of almost instantly but mine has a one to one and a half second delay. I don't know if its based on crank position (one full turn) or time but it could be shortened. I assume this delay is to keep the motor from cycling on and off too much if there's short interruptions in your cadence?

I don't know if this will help you but it can't hurt to try. The next time you turn on your bike do so while riding it very, very slowly. Pedal steadily about 10-15 rpms. Do this for about 10 seconds after the screen initializes. This will calibrate your motor to not assist when moving the pedals slowly, perhaps it will help it shut down a bit quicker too.

Ok I did some testing today regarding the shut off delay and why people seem to have different experiences. If you are pedaling down the road in a medium gear and ease off the pedal pressure to shift but don't drop your cadence, the motor assist decays over about one second or more. This means you have to wait a little too long to shift sometimes. If going up an incline you can lose momentum waiting for the chance to shift.

If you abruptly stop pedaling or pedal backwards, the motor shuts off much more quickly. This shorter delay feels better to me but forces you into an inefficient pedaling style.

Another example is when negotiating tight single track,.. I often keep pedaling while weaving between trees but that causes the shutoff delay and I sometimes feel like Im being shoved into the turns.

I am nit picking here because the overall performance is very good and natural feeling. The high dollar Specialized Turbo Levo I rode had the exact same quirks. Truthfully I never expected e-bikes to reach this level of refinement so quickly. I am constantly impressed by the battery life as well.

 

[casainho]

Another example is when negotiating tight single track,.. I often keep pedaling while weaving between trees but that causes the shutoff delay and I sometimes feel like Im being shoved into the turns.

I am nit picking here because the overall performance is very good and natural feeling. The high dollar Specialized Turbo Levo I rode had the exact same quirks. Truthfully I never expected e-bikes to reach this level of refinement so quickly. I am constantly impressed by the battery life as well.

I am curious about how Bafang shift sensor works... because if is relevant for this, we probably can connect it to the throttle wire (for the ones that can dispense throttle).

I am waiting for help on the math algorithm to run the motor well, then I can finish the firmware and add the shift sensor support -- Let's see if jur can help!!

I am blocked on developing the firmware for TSDZ2 because there are some math advanced trigonometry to get motor run very efficient and silent, which I didn't figure yet. If someone could help on this....

I could have a go at solving the math puzzle. But I need starting info, theory and such.

 

[cj0]

What is the no-load current and power consumption of a 36V TSDZ2 (in mA and VA)?
Were these values measured without a display attached (green+white wires connected) or which display was connected?
And was the backlight of that display enabled or disabled?

To answer my own question:

With a King-Meter KM5S-LCD display attached to the TSDZ2 these are the no load energy consumption results:

Backlight=off :: Itrms = 33.19~33.41 mA @ Utrms = 36.253 V // P=1.203~1.209 Watt @ PF = 0.99990 -> S = 1.21 VA
Backlight=on :: Itrms = 37.61 mA @ Utrms = 36.2525 V // P=1.363 Watt @ PF = 0.99992 -> S = 1.363 VA
Backlight=off + pedalling :: Itrms = 32.76~33.29 mA @ Utrms = 36.253 V // P=1.1875 Watt @ PF = 0.99993 -> S = 1.1876 VA

With a LM5176 based voltage regulator (to 45V) in between:
Display/controller=off :: Itrms = 28.24~34.13 mA @ Utrms = 45.566 V // P=0.0322~0.0374 Watt @ PF = 0.02501~0.02407 -> S = 1.29~1.55 VA
Backlight=off :: Itrms = 43.18~44.44 mA @ Utrms = 45.571 V // P=1.3287 Watt @ PF = 0.66143 -> S = 2.01 VA
Backlight=on :: Itrms = 47.69 mA @ Utrms = 45.573 V // P=1.5280 Watt @ PF = 0.70302 -> S = 2.17 VA

Measurements: Zes-Zimmer LMG95@100kHz, 18ºC, RH=50%

 

[casainho]

And what can we conclude??

I think LCD3 from Kunteng is very good power saving while off. Also shows motor power usage in real time unlike TSDZ2 LCDs...

I am thinking in implement a power controller, like let's say in assist level 1 max power usage is 100w, 2 200w, ..., level 5 500w. This way I could plan a travel...

Maybe configure on LCD my trip planned total distance and power available on battery, controller would provide available power per km. Maybe a fixed power per km or adapting remaining power for for remaining km. Is this crazy idea??
We have kms travaled from the wheel sensor and used power from battery measure current and voltage, the rest is math..

 

[Bartman]

Has anyone converted a 36v motor to 48v ? I have a high cadence - higher than the 36v motor Max of 80 rpm. I understand the motor should spin up to 30% faster if I use a 48v controller and battery.

How did you find it after the conversion ? Any pitfalls doing the conversion ?

Thanks

 

[Waynemarlow]

Yes, look back a few pages, eyesickle has a video of a turbo'd 36v unit running on 48v.

 

[Bigwheel]

48v controller and a 48v battery. PM if you can’t find them locally

 

[hobbyvac]

And what can we conclude??

I think LCD3 from Kunteng is very good power saving while off. Also shows motor power usage in real time unlike TSDZ2 LCDs...

I am thinking in implement a power controller, like let's say in assist level 1 max power usage is 100w, 2 200w, ..., level 5 500w. This way I could plan a travel...

Maybe configure on LCD my trip planned total distance and power available on battery, controller would provide available power per km. Maybe a fixed power per km or adapting remaining power for for remaining km. Is this crazy idea??
We have kms travaled from the wheel sensor and used power from battery measure current and voltage, the rest is math..

Its not a crazy idea,... the Specialized Turbo Levo MTB with the Brose motor has similar functionality to what you describe. Tell it how long your trip is and it will ration the power. Sounds very useful if you prefer small light batteries and don't want to worry about range anxiety. My 17.5 AH battery and 36V motor has more range than I do.

 

[AWD]

I need to make an apology for mentioning the LB01 motor above as a Tong Shen upgrade when in fact it is a whole new torque sensing unit from another manufacturer. I guess it is just going to be another go round of trying to deal with the idiosyncrasies or maybe if we're lucky it'll actually work right out of the box! As mentioned the nylon gear has a much deeper vane so hopefully that will stand up better than the TS ones little ones.

We have some samples on the way and when they arrive I'll start a thread for them. But in the meantime here are a few pics of the unit and the display.





The only thing that I think might be a bit awkward for installing is the chamfered bit at the base of the bb shell/reduction gear housing. The reasoning behind it is the same as with the Schlumpf bb drive I use on a few of my bikes. The "teeth" engage with a chamfer that is cut into the bb shell with a tool that is made for the Schlumpf. In doing so it acts as a torque "arm" and keeps the unit from moving. As I happen to have the correct tool we will be able to install them but I see problems for those that try to install it without the chamfer as it not engage fully and the reduction gear housing will not sit flush to the bb shell.

 

[casainho]

Please take detaile pictures of the inernals including the motor controler and torqie sensor!!

 

[ScooterMan101]

Will the LB01 motor work well with 52 volt ( 14s ) packs ?
or even 16s packs ?

Higher than 18 amps ?

Work with a throttle ?

Weight ?

Price ?

>>
Does this camfored part mean that once a bike frame is modified to fit this little new motor, that once the motor is taken off it will not be able to be converted back to a peddle only bike ?
If so how can you take off that camford part, or do something different so as to switch the motor over to a different bike and sell the bike it was originally put on ?
>>

I need to make an apology for mentioning the LB01 motor above as a Tong Shen upgrade when in fact it is a whole new torque sensing unit from another manufacturer. I guess it is just going to be another go round of trying to deal with the idiosyncrasies or maybe if we're lucky it'll actually work right out of the box! As mentioned the nylon gear has a much deeper vane so hopefully that will stand up better than the TS ones little ones.



The only thing that I think might be a bit awkward for installing is the chamfered bit at the base of the bb shell/reduction gear housing. The reasoning behind it is the same as with the Schlumpf bb drive I use on a few of my bikes. The "teeth" engage with a chamfer that is cut into the bb shell with a tool that is made for the Schlumpf. In doing so it acts as a torque "arm" and keeps the unit from moving. As I happen to have the correct tool we will be able to install them but I see problems for those that try to install it without the chamfer as it not engage fully and the reduction gear housing will not sit flush to the bb shell.