New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Well I rec'd my usb light today. It works fine with my laptop but it won't work with the usb port on the display. If I hook it up and try switching the light on the display shuts itself off, and the first press of the switch is supposed to put the light on low. I am guessing the usb port has very limited power. I guess I will try it out with the 6v headlight leads next.
 
casainho said:
I found the limitation of measured current on this controller: 18 amps.
STM8 pin PB5/AIN5 measures the analog signal for the battery current and for each 1 amp, the signal increases 0.275 volts. The max current measured is: 5V / 0.275V = 18.18 amps. Assuming the signal can be linear and I did my measurements correct, maybe the measured current can't be more than 18 amps.

And yes, modding the shunt should change the relation 1A/0.275...

Anyway, this measured battery current on the shunt will let the firmware protect the controller as also control the motor torque, so we can play on the firmware like implementing a torque linear ramp to always control increasing rate of torque.
What's the current status of the opensource firmware? I would be willing to help out and (beta)test :).
 
daenny said:
What's the current status of the opensource firmware? I would be willing to help out and (beta)test :).
- all input and output signals work, like the torque sensor, brakes and throttle, works very well as also PWM to control the motor (see my previous youtube videos)

- motor runs well using block communication/6 steps (see my previous video)

- LCD not working but the data packets seems very simple, is just a matter of time (do you want to start looking for LCD data over UART and implement?)

- what I found recently:
-- original firmware implements SVM, just like on Kunteng controllers and we have that implemented and working very well
-- the motor is much quieter with the SVM comparing to the block commutation
-- this controler runs the motor much better and quiter than old square wave/ block commutation, thanks to SVM
-- the microcontroller is just the same as Kunteng KT controllers!! Although in datasheet should have half of flash memory, in reality it has the same 32kbytes flash memory (this happens also on other family of STM32 microtrollers)

To resume, the controller is optimized for this motor and runs it very efficient, probably near th efficiency of an FOC controller. The amount if available flash memory is generous to implement some nice custom features -- just like we did for Kunteng KT controllers.
It is optimized for this motors because it should include an algorithm for "FOC" tailored for this specific motor. Other example, unlike KT controller, it does not support regen.
 
Wrapped up my install today. I'll take some nice pictures once I tidy up the zip ties and whatnot.

Question: What are the requirements for throttle use? My kit came with throttle, brake levers, light, vlcd5 and remote keypad. Only things I have connected are the vlcd5 and the throttle. Pedal assist works quite well, but nothing happens when activating the throttle.
 
m3lonbr3ad said:
Wrapped up my install today. I'll take some nice pictures once I tidy up the zip ties and whatnot.

Question: What are the requirements for throttle use? My kit came with throttle, brake levers, light, vlcd5 and remote keypad. Only things I have connected are the vlcd5 and the throttle. Pedal assist works quite well, but nothing happens when activating the throttle.

Whoops, didn't realize the vlcd5 ports were application specific. Middle port for throttle instead of right hand side solved my problem.
 
m3lonbr3ad said:
Wrapped up my install today. I'll take some nice pictures once I tidy up the zip ties and whatnot.

Question: What are the requirements for throttle use? My kit came with throttle, brake levers, light, vlcd5 and remote keypad. Only things I have connected are the vlcd5 and the throttle. Pedal assist works quite well, but nothing happens when activating the throttle.

Maybe it s not making a connection? Did you plug it into the middle socket? You do not need the brakes not the speed sensor, just motor, battery, and display for assist and if you plug in the throttle into the middle socket that should enable it to work.

Lol, you figured it out 1 minute before I typed it :) You might want to download the install pdf and the vlcd5 pdf, they are not well written however they have some useful info - especially about the vlcd5 user settings.
 
Don't suppose anyone could tell me a little more about my particular motor.... I saw some labels earlier in the thread indicating that there is a 52v version that runs at 4500rpm, is that one an 18a limit?

My motor is labeled 52v 4000rpm, so I am not exactly sure what I should set my current limit value.
LQS9svg.jpg
 
15amps seems to about the limit the system will be dependable at. At least in our experience.

In order for the TS to run 52v it needs the 52v controller.

There are bugs in the TSDZ2 that need to be worked out. We have had controller issues with the 52v in regards to the torque sensing that have been particularly annoying. The stock 48v seems to be trouble free. Also the nylon gear doesn't like the extra power and thus the brass (much heavier) replacement.

We have received info that the soon to arrive LB01 will have a different nylon gear that has more "tooth" to it. No word on the controller or overall look at the new system yet.
 
Current limit value in the settings? LOL. I played with that setting on my VLCD5, I tried from 2a to 16a and yet I climbed a steep hill at exactly the same speed each time. Has anyone gotten the current settings on their vlcd5 to actually do something?
 
John and Cecil said:
Current limit value in the settings? LOL. I played with that setting on my VLCD5, I tried from 2a to 16a and yet I climbed a steep hill at exactly the same speed each time. Has anyone gotten the current settings on their vlcd5 to actually do something?

The current/amp settings don't work with the VLDC-5 display, they have to be programmed through STlinkV2...
 
AWD said:
15amps seems to about the limit the system will be dependable at. At least in our experience.

In order for the TS to run 52v it needs the 52v controller.

There are bugs in the TSDZ2 that need to be worked out. We have had controller issues with the 52v in regards to the torque sensing that have been particularly annoying. The stock 48v seems to be trouble free. Also the nylon gear doesn't like the extra power and thus the brass (much heavier) replacement.

We have received info that the soon to arrive LB01 will have a different nylon gear that has more "tooth" to it. No word on the controller or overall look at the new system yet.

Hi,

Just out of curiousity, how do you measure 15a? Just the label, program yourself, or current meter?

In my experience the 52v works fine (some glitches that didn't effect performance with the xh18 display) and the current is fine up to 17-18a... If you mind your gearing, the stock gear has not even been a problem... I really have thrashed on it hard. Now, if you do a super long steep hill climb, and warm up the motor, and then switch to high gear and try to gun it up another hill it a similar scenario, then you might have a problem, but otherwise it's pretty solid.
 
eyebyesickle said:
The current/amp settings don't work with the VLDC-5 display, they have to be programmed through STlinkV2...

Thank you :) I didn't really want to change that setting I was just trying to determine if my battery was putting out enough amps. I believe it is though, spinning magnets claims the ego batteries have 20a cells.

I would like to change the max and/or min voltages though. I can only charge my battery to about 56.8v maximum. I am thinking about trying out 2 of those 24v max 4ah batteries hooked together in a series, but that would only be a 12s configuration. I don't know about running these motors down in the upper 30's though, it is much peppier with the battery up in the 50's :) Maybe if I can drop 30 lbs it won't be so bad though.
 
I tested the Amp settings too and realised it had no effect. I wondered whether you are supposed to match this with the battery capacity (Amp hours) so that the Battery display is more calibrated ?
 
Battery display, another LOL :) When my battery display shows it drop 1 measly bar I probably have 15% charge remaining. It is probably because I am using a 52v battery rather than the 48v like I am supposed to be using.
 
eyebyesickle said:
AWD said:
15amps seems to about the limit the system will be dependable at. At least in our experience.

In order for the TS to run 52v it needs the 52v controller.

There are bugs in the TSDZ2 that need to be worked out. We have had controller issues with the 52v in regards to the torque sensing that have been particularly annoying. The stock 48v seems to be trouble free. Also the nylon gear doesn't like the extra power and thus the brass (much heavier) replacement.

We have received info that the soon to arrive LB01 will have a different nylon gear that has more "tooth" to it. No word on the controller or overall look at the new system yet.

Hi,

Just out of curiousity, how do you measure 15a? Just the label, program yourself, or current meter?

In my experience the 52v works fine (some glitches that didn't effect performance with the xh18 display) and the current is fine up to 17-18a... If you mind your gearing, the stock gear has not even been a problem... I really have thrashed on it hard. Now, if you do a super long steep hill climb, and warm up the motor, and then switch to high gear and try to gun it up another hill it a similar scenario, then you might have a problem, but otherwise it's pretty solid.

Hey,

Bench tested.

I guess what I should have portrayed more clearly was that 15a was where riding felt the most natural, yet assisted and seems to be working for the commuters, mtb's and recumbent conversions. Nice to know it can run higher but the more power thing is less important than range and having higher amps, well if they are there for sure they will get used. My road bikes are 1000+w20 amp and the power thing is hard to back off of, but lot's of fun. Looking forward to more info on being able to really fine tune the controller.

The display issue is a known quantity. I personally don't even pay attention to it except to check speed, which after some fiddling somewhat mirrors that of my ride app. We have a CA3 on one of the bikes and it reads as normal. My personal bike has a 42/11-42 and I ride 90% of the time in eco and I am more of a spinner than a masher and am not a gun it up type rider, more slow and steady. I am considering putting in a small watt meter as that really is all the info I need to determine battery level mentally calculating the volt drop.

What we have seen mainly are a small piece that got chipped off one of the vanes and creates a growling noise, not any catastrophic failures at all. Hopefully the LB01's will solve this for us, at least. In the meantime putting on the brass gear, while it adds weight, seems to be working.

Don't get me wrong, it is solid kit. However it is not all the way solidified and it seems like Tong Shen is on it. But as weight is always a factor in the cycling world, as well as any mechanized one, I would like to see a kit mid that dropped a kilo. After having each piece of a TSDZ2 individually in your hand, at least I, think how this could be made lighter and the solid square taper spindle with the heavy steel gear could turn into a hollow ISIS type with a belt driven nylon one and so on in my mind losing a kilo.

But that is a ways out.....The race to the bottom though has begun with the manufacturers boasting of 44lb. bikes. According to my calculations it should be possible in the future as things develop to drop >4 lbs. from that and with a light Hardtail or FS frame get into the high 30's with a 52v 520wh battery on board. No doubt this could be beat with a lower wattage motor and a smaller battery but there is no fun in that combination. Maybe that's why they call it doping.
 
Its tough to make a product that pleases everyone. It will be interesting to see how the e-bikes will evolve into categories and blend with the cycling community. I can appreciate the need for speed and power but I have motorcycles for that. My attraction to the TSDZ2 system is from an ex mtn bike racers perspective. The 250 watt 36 volt system is the perfect assist for a 61 yr old. I still have good leg function and the desire for a good workout but the extra help just makes me feel like a 20 yr old and lets me match the pace and distance of my younger buddies. I spend all of my time at level 2 assist because 3 doesn't let me "push" on the pedals enough. It feels too much like I'm pedaling air which actually hurts my knees more. Level 4 is not usable for me except on the road in high gear. For my use the sweet spot is 36 volts. You have no durability issues, can use cheaper, lighter batteries and I have more range than my legs.

I suspect (and hope) that the industry splits into two categories. There will always be a large group who want high wattage throttle equipped bikes but I hope they keep a low power torque sensing category and I hope that option becomes accepted for use on mountain bike trails. I fear that we will become our worst enemies and never be welcome on trails or sidewalks. We could get stuck in the middle,... not quite road legal but not sidewalk or trail legal either. It will be a challenge for the industry to avoid an image of speed crazed hooligans that need to be banned from having too much fun.

I still ride mountain bike trails until the rules catch up but I shut off the motor and make eye contact and conversation when passing cyclists or hikers so they don't look down at my bike. So far I have managed to remain invisible but I fear my over sized grin will give me away :D
 
The "Hot Dogs" have already gotten E-FatBikes banned from Ft Myers Beach, FL. Were cruising through the crowds on the beach, and up and down the sidewalks at full speed. City Council banned by 5-1 vote. When the Rental business owner complained the response of a Councilman was "too bad".

The quest for more powerful and faster motors will only enable the irresponsible to kill the golden goose for everyone. Sadly, the older bikers who need to restore a few years to keep up with their riding buddies may lose that option because those that can already ride 20+ unassisted "feel the need for speed".
 
FYI, I don't think I've seen this posted in this thread, but I got the following error info worth sharing:

Err-02 is Motor Hall Fault or Short Circuit
Err-03 is Controller Failure
Err-04 is throttle fault
Err-06 is torque sensor calibration error during power-on
Err-08 is Low Battery

I assume these are all displayed on the VLCD5 as E02, E03, E04, E06 and E08

I had a throttle error(E04) on my second ride. I dismantled the throttle and it seems the sensor setup used for throttle position isnt terribly robust looking, so I've just decided to remove it to clean up the cockpit a bit; additionally, it doesnt really add anything for my particular use.
 
m3lonbr3ad said:
FYI, I don't think I've seen this posted in this thread, but I got the following error info worth sharing:

Err-02 is Motor Hall Fault or Short Circuit
Err-03 is Controller Failure
Err-04 is throttle fault
Err-06 is torque sensor calibration error during power-on
Err-08 is Low Battery

I assume these are all displayed on the VLCD5 as E02, E03, E04, E06 and E08

I had a throttle error(E04) on my second ride. I dismantled the throttle and it seems the sensor setup used for throttle position isnt terribly robust looking, so I've just decided to remove it to clean up the cockpit a bit; additionally, it doesnt really add anything for my particular use.

Hmm, this list looks familiar ;) like one I sent yesterday, hehe. it's a small TSDZ2 world!

I was thinking about making a TSDZ info summary thread, maybe it can be locked, and keep all the useful data that is confirmed for everyone's reference... What do you all think?
 
eyebyesickle said:
I jist
Hmm, this list looks familiar ;) like one I sent yesterday, hehe. it's a small TSDZ2 world!

I was thinking about making a TSDZ info summary thread, maybe it can be locked, and keep all the useful data that is confirmed for everyone's reference... What do you all think?
I just copy paste that list to my notes file, the OpenSource firmware html page will be updated next time I do a git push.
 
Well, since casainho is doing such a good job with the open source firmware, I think I'm going to dig into display hack. As mentioned earlier, I'd like to make the XH-18 an open source display, compatible with a wide range of controllers. Now since I know next to nothing about display firmware, any documentation would be more than welcome :) Also, where I can I find a cheap XH-18 ? (living in europe). I have one unit, but if I brake this one, my wife is going to kill me.
 
qwerkus said:
Well, since casainho is doing such a good job with the open source firmware, I think I'm going to dig into display hack. As mentioned earlier, I'd like to make the XH-18 an open source display, compatible with a wide range of controllers. Now since I know next to nothing about display firmware, any documentation would be more than welcome :) Also, where I can I find a cheap XH-18 ? (living in europe). I have one unit, but if I brake this one, my wife is going to kill me.
I took internal photos and shared here:

https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/development_tsdz2/About_Tongsheng_TSDZ2_mid_drive_motors--LCD_-_VLCD5.html

4-1.png


UART communication to LCD

Seems that packages are sent at about every 60ms.
The baudrate is 9600 bps.

Example of a log from data on microcontroller UART TX pin that flows to the LCD:
07 07 57 43 06 00 00 00 00 07 07 57 43 07 00 00
00 00 07 07 58 43 07 00 00 00 00 07 07 58 43 07
00 00 00 00 07 07 57 43 07 00 00 00 00 07 07 58
43 07 00 00 00 00 07 07 58 43 06 00 00 00 00 07
07 57 43 07 00 00 00 00 07 07 58 43 07 00 00 00
00 07 07 58 43 07 00 00 00 00 07 07 58 43 07 00
00 00 00 07 07 58 43 06 00 00 00 00 07 07 57 43
06 00 00 00 00 07 07 58 43 06 00 00 00 00 07 07
 
casainho said:
I took internal photos and shared here:

Yes, saw those on your website. Though the XH-18 is quite a bit different. Not sure it uses the same microcontroller.
 
qwerkus said:
casainho said:
I took internal photos and shared here:

Yes, saw those on your website. Though the XH-18 is quite a bit different. Not sure it uses the same microcontroller.
Go and take photos of XH-18.
Use an FTDI cable to read what data LCD send to the controller. You will need to change parameters on LCD and figure out which bits does change.
Than do the same for the controller, you can wire the FTDI in parallel to original lines, that works and is what I did.

I need to know the protocol/data sent and received by the LCDs, to implement on the firmware.
 
eyebyesickle said:
I was thinking about making a TSDZ info summary thread, maybe it can be locked, and keep all the useful data that is confirmed for everyone's reference... What do you all think?

Brilliant!
Trawling through threads full of opinions and mis-information is getting particularly annoying.
Keep it scientific and comparative of different models.
Thanks soo much!
 
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