New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[tinasdude]

1) Scroll back a day or three; there are only two people here who've reported getting one, as I recall, one got his direct from Tongsheng, and the other, I THINK, got theirs from Future Bike in Italy.

I ordered my 48v 500w from here:
https://conhismotor.aliexpress.com/store/513166
on arrival I the sticker on the motor said 48V 18A
Using it with 13s9p.

Any idea if adding Constant Voltage to the battery would improve the experience? (though the kit will probably think the battery is always full). MAybe a dc-dc converter to 14s

Thanks. I emailed Conhismotor yesterday.they do have the 18a. I wonder if it is 14S compatible?. I guess another email will be necessary.

 

[r0mko]

Hi again,
Here's an update to my story about broken spindle and other disasters.
The reality turned out to be different that I expected. My seller refused to do a full refund and offered me an almost free repair instead, due to a significant wear and mileage of the motor, he said. I had to cancel my order for BBS02 and agree to a repair, because the seller offered me too small refund for my unit.
But this is not the end of the story.
The repaired motor ran not very long and after another 400 km started to behave jerky. Eventually I totally lose the torque sensing. It just kicked in with full power as only I just started to pedal. I opened the motor and found out that one bearing was pressed-in with some offset towards a torque sensor. Eventually the bearing simply rubbed through an aluminium disk, cut away the axle mounting eyes and shorted the sensor wires (see attached pictures). The new torque sensor at pswpower costs 100$ plus another 60€ for shipping to Germany, which in total is half of a price of a whole motor, so I decided to order there a brand new TSDZ2 motor. I have rode on it already 1000 km and everything is just fine. My new TSDZ2 is 350W/36V version with VLCD5 for 31mm handlebar (my wife's VLCD5 has mount only for 25mm, so I failed to install her display onto my thick handlebar). In my opinion, the 350W one has noticeably more "pep" than 250W one.
Now I have a new TSDZ2 and the old one for spare parts. Now I am familiar with its internals and the build quality which is quite impressive. BTW, I have quite a lot of pictures of TSDZ2 internals.
About the welded spindle: my wrong, there's no welding, it is an integral part and mine has broken due to some internal flaw.
So I'm still a happy owner of a TSDZ2. Recently had a chance to test a Bafang-based build and I didn't like the feel. It pushes way too strong regardless of my efforts. Torque sensing TSDZ2 feels much more natural. The BBS02 owner confirmed that.

Hi all,
I have registered here specially for writing this report. Have read this topic last summer while deciding which motor to purchase for upgrading my wife's and my bike. Benefits of TSDZ2 overweighed the Bafang's and I bought two upgrade kits. It has neater look in terms of machining and design, it has less wires and so on. What can I tell after six months everyday commuting and >2000 km overall distance? First of all, it definitely satisfied my expectations. Installation was easy and even a dumb would have managed it. It delivers massive torque and accelerates me (85 kg) riding a good old heavy all-mountain/enduro full-suspension bike (say, another 23 kg with motor and battery) to 30 km/h nearly instantly. Riding home to the 110 meter high hill became a joy instead of violent punishment. Noise is present and only seems to be bit annoying while climbing really steep grades at 10-12 km/h. My wife even likes it At speeds exceeding 20 km/h I can't hear it anymore through wind and tires hum. I couldn't find any significant flaw, everything worked like a charm until recent.
This happened right after Christmas, I rode to work and stopped at the crossing to pass the traffic. When I started moving again I gave it a little more thrust because another approaching car gave me a road. I just pushed the pedal gently but strongly, not even speaking of standing up on it with full weight. But happened the catastrophe. The crank just fell off with a part of an axle. Further investigations shown that there was a welding defect. Yes, there was a welded seam in the axle! I am not a mechanic guru but having in mind torsional loads of this unit, I can figure out that the axle of a bottom bracket is not a good place for welded seams. Probably the water soaked the seam and then freezed that caused its weakening. I attached some pics to display the scale of disaster.
I sent this motor back to the supplier (he confirmed that this was a warranty case) and now expecting the Bafang BBS02. So that was my sad story.

 

[Patoruzu]

Thanks. I emailed Conhismotor yesterday.they do have the 18a. I wonder if it is 14S compatible?. I guess another email will be necessary.

According to eyebyesickle, it is.
But probably unofficially.

 

[Patoruzu]

... shipping to Germany...
My new TSDZ2 is 350W/36V version...
In my opinion, the 350W one has noticeably more "pep" than 250W one.

Do you know how high is the fine if the European police finds you are above 250W?

 

[r0mko]

I have no idea AFAIK there's no limit for power in Germany, only for top assisted speed, license-free Bosch motors also have a 350W version. And I'm in doubt if they can determine the power of a motor without any signs outside =)

Do you know how high is the fine if the European police finds you are above 250W?

 

[tinasdude]

I have seen several ads that have the 18A motor, yet still advertise 80N.m. I am assuming the increase to 18A gives it the 100 N.m, and 52v battery gives it the 100 RPM? Saw that someone was going to do some reprogramming of the controller. Look forward to seeing the results. Am I mistaken or did I see in a past post that someone had gotten one changed to 20A?

 

[eyebyesickle]

I have seen several ads that have the 18A motor, yet still advertise 80N.m. I am assuming the increase to 18A gives it the 100 N.m, and 52v battery gives it the 100 RPM? Saw that someone was going to do some reprogramming of the controller. Look forward to seeing the results. Am I mistaken or did I see in a past post that someone had gotten one changed to 20A?

There is a few different models, some limit voltage to 54.6, some can go full 58.8.

Power also depends on programming... they don't like to give them full power, they will break easy(er). That's why I recommend upgrading the gear to the copper one from futurebike...


Here are the new 48v18a.... can go to 100rpm, more torque, headlight/tailight splitter from the speed sensing power wires... 6 wire output... good for VLDC-5. I say forget the xh-18 after full testing...

 

[eyebyesickle]

Thanks. I emailed Conhismotor yesterday.they do have the 18a. I wonder if it is 14S compatible?. I guess another email will be necessary.

According to eyebyesickle, it is.
But probably unofficially.

no..... the 18a I HAD was.... I think at this point MOST are, but I can confirm, from COHIS/RISUN... last I checked they were NOT.

I have not checked for 2 weeks at this point, because I straightened out my supply directly with TS

 

[Patoruzu]

There is a few different models, some limit voltage to 54.6, some can go full 58.8.

:? I will then get a variable power supply to test mine.

Power also depends on programming... they don't like to give them full power, they will break easy(er). That's why I recommend upgrading the gear to the copper one from futurebike...

I will probably have the copper gear stand by, until the blue one tears out.

Here are the new 48v18a.... can go to 100rpm, more torque, headlight/tailight splitter from the speed sensing power wires... 6 wire output... good for VLDC-5. I say forget the xh-18 after full testing...

They came like this from factory (headlight/tailight splitter) or you did it? How many cables has the headlight connector? You seem to have 2 split cables!
I ask because my TSDZ2 came also with a splitter. The motor has two HIGO connectors, one for the speed sensor and one that connects to the splitter, but it splits at the front of the bike. One connector goes straight to the xh18, the other (with 3 pins) I hope is for the headlight (no idea what else it could be)

And why to forget the xh-18?

Did you get the Service Kit with the HIGO/Serial adapter and the software?
I was thinking of getting the STLingV2 myself and see what I could do.
BTW, the rar file you posted some weeks ago is not working

 

[eyebyesickle]

the extra 3 pin is for the throttle to be used with xh-18. I don't care for the XH-18 anymore after extensive use due to unreliability. It cuts out, and is glitchy. Half the time when I power off, it malfunctions. Hasn't stopped working, but I don't like it. The vldc is more robust than I thought. I actually like the display and mount, it has a USB, is just generally better and performs better, IMO.

The xh-18 is a little smaller and the twist mechanism may be a little better for single track aggressive riding... but honestly, with the +\- buttons little side panel on the vldc... its not bad.... Just preference... but I tried both units extensively and just got pissed at the xh-18, when I rallied so hard behind it at first.

I had the factory make the extra splitter (from the speed sensor) it branches into 2 for both headlight, AND taillight. they just have little jst conector, and one is bare wire crimp.

I'm sure others are getting this configuration, but I believe I am the first... was a pain to work out.

A 'FRIEND' OF A 'FRIEND' OF SOME SHADY DUDE IN AN ALLEY is working the programming out for me... I'll take a look when its on the screen like some idiot savant pseudo 'accountant' ahahah if you know the reference.

Anyway, let me get that RAR back up for you all

 

[eyebyesickle]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZJVw_3ibzkZGMyN2VEanMxTVk

 

[MPM]

I don't care for the XH-18 anymore after extensive use due to unreliability.

As another point of view, my experience with the XH-18 has been good. Now I'm less adventurous than eyebyesickle and haven't tried to connect lights, brake switches, higher voltages or change the software. I'm running a standard 36V system with a 36V battery. My XH-18 has been perfectly reliable for me.

Only two minor issues I would mention:
- If I unplug my battery after a ride my XH-18 doesn't store the most recent odometer setting. So it only stores the miles of a ride if I manually switch off the XH-18 before I unplug. Now in my case this odometer is rather meaningless anyway because I often ride without power, so I don't care. I'm not sure how the other display would deal with that.
- Other minor thing, some brake handles fit under the display, but not all. My original ones did. But when I removed my derailleurs I wanted brake handles without integrated gear change, so I picked a cheap handle that is the same left and right. Those have their thicker mounting bits with a bolt to clamp it at the handlebar right at the same place where the XH-18 display wants to sit. It fits, but I had to rotate the screen further away from me than I'd like. In the mean time I bought other brake handles that should fit nicer, but the issue is minor enough that I haven't installed those yet.

Anyway, still very happy with the XH-18 and would pick it again. And I love how it looks on my bike as it's almost the symmetric mirror image of my Rohloff gear change that sits on the right hand side of the handlebars.

 

[eyebyesickle]

sounds good, to be clear.... I still have the xh18 mounted on the Norco, so I don't HATE it =) just it kept glitching, and especially losing my settings, and the speed limit would kick back on a bunch... gets annoying sometimes... maybe was just a bad run of them, maybe the voltage etc...

 

[MPM]

Did any of you weigh your bike before and after installation? I think the TSDZ2 is light for what it can do.

I picked the TSDZ2 because I want a bit of help biking up hills with two kids, but other than that I want a normal bike rather than an electric moped. So I focused a lot on keeping weight down. I'm not aware of any lighter retrofit than the TSDZ2 that can get 150kg up a 10% hill quite comfortably and even 15% with some more sweating. Albeit slow, a bit over 8 km/h.

Other motors that I saw (or looked up in the ebikes.ca simulator) either burn up in minutes when you ask for a lot of torque at low rpm, or if they can do it they are heavy.

I weighed my bike before and after, and believe I ended up with 4.5kg more weight from the motor, XH-18 and including a small 6.4Ah 36V battery. I also added 0.3kg by replacing two derailleurs with an IGH. I'm quite happy! My weighing before and after was not very accurate though, I weighed myself on our personal scale while lifting the bike and without, to calculate the bike weight, and repeated it after installing the TSDZ2.

Did anyone do a more accurate comparison on your builds? Anyone know of anything that is as light as the TSDZ2 and can climb?

 

[tinasdude]

I have seen several ads that have the 18A motor, yet still advertise 80N.m. I am assuming the increase to 18A gives it the 100 N.m, and 52v battery gives it the 100 RPM? Saw that someone was going to do some reprogramming of the controller. Look forward to seeing the results. Am I mistaken or did I see in a past post that someone had gotten one changed to 20A?

Do you have a link for these latest motors?
There is a few different models, some limit voltage to 54.6, some can go full 58.8.

Power also depends on programming... they don't like to give them full power, they will break easy(er). That's why I recommend upgrading the gear to the copper one from futurebike...


Here are the new 48v18a.... can go to 100rpm, more torque, headlight/tailight splitter from the speed sensing power wires... 6 wire output... good for VLDC-5. I say forget the xh-18 after full testing...

View attachment 1

 

[tinasdude]

Do you have a link for these latest motors?

 

[eyebyesickle]

no link...

honestly I was up tonight trying to work with them so they can offer a 750w 'American version' with the metal gear inside, with headlight wire, etc... they are scared people will complain from the noise... mentioned me handling support... dunno, I don't think so

either way, just wait a bit, your hearing it first on ES - the 750w version is about to hit... :lol:

 

[christiank]

going over the handlebars can't be fun! Luckily, looks like only a scuffed leg and not a broken one! And, a bit of walking, I suppose!

.. welded seam unless truly forced to do so. It should be a single forged piece...

Also, does it appear that someone could replace the axle at, say, a competent bike shop?

RT

Hi,

It was not only the leg - left elbow and shoulder touched ground too when roling over the bar.
But nothing brocken the doctor said.

The axle is of one piece, IMO there is no welding.
The reason is classic fatigue caused by the grove for the seeger-ring.
Such a grove on a forged crankaxle is ridiculous bad engeneering - this should be made by a bushing or something else - however this is costly and therefore....

The replacement axle is shorter than the one in the motor (probably this motor was one of the first batch produced)
The old motor had 2 roller bearings at the left side of the bottom bracket, the new axle is made for only one bearing so the momentum from the crankarm forcing the axle to bend should be slightly lower.

@rOmko

Assembling the spare axle is more complicated as it looks.
The needle bearing (right bottom racket bearing) is moving on the axle for abaut 2-3mm.
This would mean that the axle have to be pressed in 1mm further than the left bottom bracket bearing would allow and then the axle have to be pushed back for this 1mm and THEN the left bearing have to pressed finally into its seat.
Looking at the inductor/coil that transferes the torque-sensor data to the controler this is far from beeing a simple task.
This coil is "flying free" only kept in place by the magnets -BUT -beeing pushed out of place by 3 springs.
It would be very hard to push/hammer the axle into the housing without constantly flipping the coil out of place.
So, doing this with a hammer is cumbersome and risky - a hydraulic press would be the choice _and_ turned parts (bushings, aso) as counterparts = $$$$

So in the end I aggree with your conclusion: I will take out the parts that can be used as spare parts (controller, electric motor, gear), dump the rest and order a new spare motor from pswpower cause overhauling the engine (with uncertain success) would mean replacing all bearings too and looking at the overall cost and effort a new engine is IMO the better choice.

Over all I'm happy with this motor and will stay with it.

 

[tomjasz]

no link...

honestly I was up tonight trying to work with them so they can offer a 750w 'American version' with the metal gear inside, with headlight wire, etc... they are scared people will complain from the noise... mentioned me handling support... dunno, I don't think so

either way, just wait a bit, your hearing it first on ES - the 750w version is about to hit... :lol:

A metal gear is a silly over reaction to an imaginary problem. The noise will be a fail. My 48v 500w sample, lands tomorrow.

 

[tinasdude]

no link...

honestly I was up tonight trying to work with them so they can offer a 750w 'American version' with the metal gear inside, with headlight wire, etc... they are scared people will complain from the noise... mentioned me handling support... dunno, I don't think so

either way, just wait a bit, your hearing it first on ES - the 750w version is about to hit... :lol:

Will they upgrade the fets?. This is like the history of the BBSO2 all over again.

 

[tinasdude]

New chain on part worn rear sprocket, the sprocket wears to suit the worn chain pitch length ( stretches as it gets worn ) and round off the tips of the sprocket, put an unworn chain on and it will now sit in the rounded section and won't grip. Moral of the story, change the chain a bit more often, its the cheapest part of the system.

Hi Wayne, I'm fully prepared to believe that, but that's not my scenario.

The chain measures as good as new with one of those gadgets that I bought just for that job - who knows how accurate they are? (Comments very welcome about this. I don't object to running a new chain, but if the old one is truly as great as it both looks and measures by this device, then it's wasteful, and I well remember the lesson of the Lore Axe. 8) )

The gearset is brand new Shimano 11-28T cassette, zero miles of cycling before I figure this out, not even a few feet since I never got it up to high enough speed to call for top gear on the one test ride before discovery, and haven't used it in service since the discovery because I know jumping out under load is likely to cause damage. So... it's STILL a new gear!

I do have a new chain, though... But since the chain looks great and measures as new, I decided not to install it yet.

As an aside, I think I paid about exactly the same for my new Shimano cassette as my new chain - about $12. So, neither was expensive. My plan was to save the new one until the old one shows signs of wear.

When you change your sprocket , you change your chain, regardless if it shows stretching. A lot more going besides stretching.

 

[RTIII]

Hi Eye, I want one of these wiring looms!

BTW, got the RAR file but need ordering data for the wiring cable set to make use of it! Please share!

I agree with tomjasz that the copper gear is almost certainly a complete waste; only "necessary" for those who intentionally abuse the system would be my guess. I like the idea of having an option, however. Make it two models, one for the sane person - perhaps called the "American street kit" - and one for the insane - perhaps called "the insane American kit"! :lol: 8) I'll champion that!


BTW, dare I point out, 18A at "48v" is 864 watts, while only 15A is 720 watts. So... they already have a "750 watt" system! Maybe they're holding back until testing is completed - who knows?

Hi Christian,

Glad nothing was broken! But sorry to hear so much of you met the earth that way!

Yes, no "stress riser" for fatigue cracking to begin should be permitted on a crankshaft! And I'm sure you're right; it's all about cost. Thank you for sharing about the internals and how they're changing! One of the first units you say? How long ago was it made, any ideas?

Hi tomjasz,

I well recall the excitement when I got my 15A 48v unit just a few weeks ago! Do let us know how it works out for you!

Hi tinasdude,

glad to have comments from someone with historic insights on the BBS02, and would perhaps like more! (For comparison sake, of course.) How long ago was it introduced? And what were its key changes, do you know? How long before it stabilized into what it is now? We might see these same developmental steps with the TSDZ2.

Also, thanks for the comment on chains. I was looking into changing out the chain just last night. There doesn't appear to be any special chain link; does one just break it apart anywhere? (I do have a chain link tool). I would presume I should lay out both chains side by side and replace it with the same link count as the new one is supposed to be extra long so it can serve most everyone. ... Again, no special links? Hmmm... Is it a good idea to put take out and reinstall different link pins each time so their interference fit doesn't become loose? (I presume that's how they're held in place!)

I also have to do this at the same time I alter the front derailleur as the chain goes through it as well as the frame. And the front derailleur will require some engineering. Since I couldn't find data on derailleurs for what chainring distances they're intended to serve, I bought a "braze on" clamp and derailleur style and I'll have to fabricate a mounting system between the two! Lucky for me, I have a metal working workshop at my disposal! 8) Still, I'll need a chunk of time - probably will do it this Sunday morning since I'll be pretty busy until then.

Thanks for all the insights, gang! This is a pretty great group! 8) :lol:

 

[tinasdude]

RTlll. http://sportbestshop.com/32613724908-wholesale-kmc-missing-link-8s-9s-10s-11s-speed-chains-for-shimano-campagnolo-silver-gold.jpg. one way to measure chain. Break the chain. Take out of derailleur. Wrap around your largest rear cog and around your largest crank gear. Where they overlap by 2 links, that should be the length of your chain. That means if when removing links, and you wont have 2 full links, add one. Bbso2 750 came out in 2014 i think 25 amps. Overheat problems for some. Changed to 3077 fets in 2015. Still have to be careful power in the wrong gear. BBSHD 1000W eliminated this issue. More fets and stouter motor. Hard to kill. Can be overvolted with an external controller and 72V battery. And 40-45 amps can be run safely. 3300W beast.

 

[Patoruzu]

Break the chain. Take out of derailleur. Wrap around your largest rear cog and around your largest crank gear. Where they overlap by 2 links, that should be the length of your chain.

I might need another coffee, but I do not picture what you mean

The chain around the largest front and back gears without derailleur + 2 links it is obviously not enough when you add the derailleur.

Regarding the picture, you need to press from the sides of the quicklink (If I recall the name correctly) and only then try to get the extremes of the link closer (I remember they puzzled me the first time). Very convenient. I survived once a broken chain thanks to one of those.

 

[RTIII]

Break the chain. Take out of derailleur. Wrap around your largest rear cog and around your largest crank gear. Where they overlap by 2 links, that should be the length of your chain.

I might need another coffee, but I do not picture what you mean

The chain around the largest front and back gears without derailleur + 2 links it is obviously not enough when you add the derailleur.

I quite agree - but I might have a coffee deficit too! In any event, when I put my existing chain through the test of "is it long enough or too long" it makes the worst case comfortably, in service situation, with little extra slack. In fact, I'm kind of glad I didnt' get a bigger first gear cassette because it might not have made it around anything bigger than a 28. So, the current length is perfect, at least on the "long enough for worst case", but IDK how this may mean not enough tension to keep the smallest gear? Hmmm...

Regarding the picture, you need to press from the sides of the quicklink (If I recall the name correctly) and only then try to get the extremes of the link closer (I remember they puzzled me the first time). Very convenient. I survived once a broken chain thanks to one of those.

OK, now I don't get it! ... WAY back in the day, some decades ago, my bikes had what were called then "master links", but I don't find one on this chain, or on the new one I bought. This "master" is a special link designed to be the point at which you take it apart. It was OBVIOUSLY different. ... On these modern chains, I don't see any obviously different links. So, what am I looking for? A little dot? A red mark? Something?! A clue would be nice!