New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"
- Thread starter larsottar
- Start date
Interesting. I might try and replace the blue gear on my unit too to solve the noise issue.
To all interested into alternate motor fixing solution, I tried many different options, and by far the best results I got ist with simple stainless steel cable:
Though I'd recommend a 2-bolt clamp for better long term strength
Cable binder up to 10mm would always brake (the plastic they use is NOT UV resistant, and will weaken over time), and all screw/ bolt options would end up loosening over time. Fastening the motor via BB seems completely hopeless: way too many vibrations.
I double rolled a 3mm steel cable around the motor bracket and the right chainstay. Never had a problem since. There is some skeaking or similar noise audible when hot-rodding the motor, but the cable seems solid. The clamps coming with those steel cable are optimized for vibration resistance, and mine shows no signs of loosening after a few thousands miles. If I had to do it again, I'd use 4 or 5mm steel. 2mm just snapped off, and 3mm still looks weekish.
Anyone interested, I can share some pictures.
To all interested into alternate motor fixing solution, I tried many different options, and by far the best results I got ist with simple stainless steel cable:
Though I'd recommend a 2-bolt clamp for better long term strength
Cable binder up to 10mm would always brake (the plastic they use is NOT UV resistant, and will weaken over time), and all screw/ bolt options would end up loosening over time. Fastening the motor via BB seems completely hopeless: way too many vibrations.
I double rolled a 3mm steel cable around the motor bracket and the right chainstay. Never had a problem since. There is some skeaking or similar noise audible when hot-rodding the motor, but the cable seems solid. The clamps coming with those steel cable are optimized for vibration resistance, and mine shows no signs of loosening after a few thousands miles. If I had to do it again, I'd use 4 or 5mm steel. 2mm just snapped off, and 3mm still looks weekish.
Anyone interested, I can share some pictures.
casainho said:
That is the one comment I was waiting for. Anyone tried to wildly flash your K-LCD3 firmware on the XH-18 ? If the controller is chip is the same, it should be doable with minimal hassle. What do you think ? Location of the debug pins seems pretty obvious, and there is no need to take the potting away, if you access the pins from the back.
AWD said:
Are you seeing integrated motor frames that are cheap? Where?
Q factor is 210mm with the Tongshin cranks, that is really a lot
View attachment 1
Bafang BBS cranks fit perfectly, aren't expensive, and reduce the Q factor to 182mm
That is not bad, pretty typical for mountain bikes. I'm not sure an integrated motor would have lower Q factor than 182mm.
Kisazul said:
Ouch!
Unfortunately the casting carries the load from the pinion to the ring gear and sets the gear tolerance, which is tight. Gears develop forces that push them apart, too.
Even the strongest epoxies are only a fraction of the strength of cast aluminum, and gear tolerances are so tight that the epoxy in the joint would cause a clearance problem. Welding aluminum requires a lot of skill to do well. The welder needs to know the alloy to pick the right filler, and alloys vary widely in their weldability. Some aluminum alloys cannot be successfully welded at all. Above all that how could you maintain the gear tolerance? If I was trying to maintain a gear tolerance in a weldment it would be machine after welding (I'm a mechanical engineer who does this type of design).
Sorry for the bad news, AWD on the next page says he knows of a casting in the US west coast, that seems like it could be a good lead.
jbalat said:
In part the plate that clips onto the stays takes driving moment from the motor, anything that takes the moment without prying the casting where Kisazul's broke seems like it could work, although the devil is in the details.
After Kisazul's photo I took a look at the load path and have a new appreciation for the 'Securing Plate'
If the securing plate is not well tightened down any force or impact to the TDSZ2 main body will stress exactly where Kisazul's casting broke.
So check the M33.5 lock nut and the two M5 screws into the securing plate from time to time and tighten if they get loose.
My attempt to pull information together on these two TDSZ2 subjects
Q factor is the outside measurement of the crank arms where the pedals screw in. Road bikes measure around 150mm, mountain bikes around 175mm, the TDSZ2 with stock arms measures 210mm.
Q factor is controversial, some says it is much ado about nothing, others say less is better. For sure wider Q means you scrape your pedals earlier when cornering.
For those you feel the TDSZ2 Q factor is excessive there is an easy way to reduce it to 182mm, use Bafang BBS cranks arms. I bought a pair for $27 from thinkpan on ebay, they are sold a lot of places. They fit perfectly on the TDSZ2.
Chainline is the distance of the center of the chainwheel to the center of the frame. Chains work best if they pull straight. Derailleurs move the chain side to side, so the chain can only pull straight on one cog, any other cog and the chain is not pulling straight. Opinions differ, but my experience is that things get scrapey (noise, chain wear, bad shifting) at 18mm offset. As bike manufacturers add cogs the dimensions change. They make the chains narrower, tighten cog spacing, etc. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html. By the time you are trying to make 10 speeds (4mm cog spacing and 37mm cluster width) work on a single chainring you need your chainring to be centered really well on your cluster. I would really want to be within 2mm of centered, more than that and it is better to stop using the worst rear cog. Fewer speeds don't necessarily help, they have more cog spacing and the chains are less flexible, but 7 speed spacing (5mm cog to cog and 32mm overall cluster width) is more tolerant, 5mm off is pretty OK with 7 speed spacing. And keep in mind that the TDSZ2 is stronger than you are, the engineers weren't designing for motors, at most they were designing to a tandem with two strong riders.
Tongsheng specifies 50.2mm chainline http://www.tsbicycle.net/products_detail/productId=136.html
View attachment 3
I don't trust the cross-section drawing because it shows 50.2mm with a flat chainring but... I measured 50.7mm on my unit so 50.2mm is close, 50mm is standard on mountain bikes, 145mm is standard on road bikes.
The stock chainring is dished 5mm. Using a flat chainring (the spider is 110mm BCD (bolt circle diameter) so they are common) increases chainline 5mm, so really the stock 42T chainring is the way to go for most cases. 50.7mm is really not bad, so the talk of an inherently terrible chainline is not true when the TDSZ2 fits the bike well. But the TDSZ2 doesn't fit all bikes well (and good guidance about what you need in a frame is not easy to find before you buy, I'm trying to give some of that here). So:
50.7mm applies to a 68mm BB. 73mm BB bumps it up 2.5mm
The gear reduction housing almost touches my chainstays, and I have steel road chainstays which are the most compact.
View attachment 1
You really need the TDSZ2 main casting to seat against the bottom bracket tube. If it can't because the gear reduction is touching the chain stay you will stress the casting in a really bad way when you tighten the M33.5 lock nut. Don't do that. Use shim washers until the casting seats (increases chainline), grind the casting locally (do at our own risk) or dent the chainstay (only on a steel frame and also at your own risk).
So it is really nice if it fits your 68mm bottom bracket frame. OK, so what can be done about chainline if it too large? (too small is easy, use a non-dished chainring).
1. (easy and cheap, 1mm). Use 10mm inside diameter 1mm thick shim washers McMaster Carr 98089A385 gives dimensions to look for.
2. (harder, not expensive, 3mm) I haven't done this because my chainline is OK, but I am confident it would work. The 42T dished chainring is steel so it has decent thread strength if tapped. The chainring nut is on the inside, If the nut is removed thicker spacers can be used. Tap the existing 10mm holes 7/16-20 UNF. Drill out the spider to 7/16 inch (11.1mm) taking care to keep centered. Use 10mm inside diameter spacers (it looks to me like up to 3mm would work) and assemble directly into the chainring. Grind or shim the bolts to exact length so they don't protrude. If you go metric I think you really want to go fine thread (M12x1.25), even though it is less common. It should be OK but the chainring holes will need to be drilled to 10.9mm before tapping. 7/16-20 is easier if you can get the tap and bolts.
3. (easy, $100, 5mm). Buy the custom 10mm offset 42T chainring made for the TDSZ2. http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p65/42_Tooth_Narrow%2FWide_CNC_7075_T6_Chainring_%2810mm_offset%29_for_TSDZ2.html
4. (variable difficulty and results) Fuss with your cluster. Freehub cassettes can be manipulated, check the web. You can put nine 10 speed cogs on a 7 speed freehub body. You can stop using the worst cog. You can reduce the clearance from the smallest cog to the dropout by moving spacers from the cluster side to the other end of the axle (no bad effects so long as the chain doesn't rub, but you have to re-dish the wheel). Bafang BBS people have a thread that covers a lot of this. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84097
My take overall is that Q factor is easy to make way better, and the chainline is not bad if you have a good frame fit. But if you don't have a good fit it can be a real problem. If I was thinking whether to buy I would be pretty confident if my frame was steel, my bottom bracket was 68mm wide, and my chainstays did not look wide compared to the picture above. If the frame fit looked iffy I would ask questions on this forum before buying.
Q factor is the outside measurement of the crank arms where the pedals screw in. Road bikes measure around 150mm, mountain bikes around 175mm, the TDSZ2 with stock arms measures 210mm.
Q factor is controversial, some says it is much ado about nothing, others say less is better. For sure wider Q means you scrape your pedals earlier when cornering.
For those you feel the TDSZ2 Q factor is excessive there is an easy way to reduce it to 182mm, use Bafang BBS cranks arms. I bought a pair for $27 from thinkpan on ebay, they are sold a lot of places. They fit perfectly on the TDSZ2.
Chainline is the distance of the center of the chainwheel to the center of the frame. Chains work best if they pull straight. Derailleurs move the chain side to side, so the chain can only pull straight on one cog, any other cog and the chain is not pulling straight. Opinions differ, but my experience is that things get scrapey (noise, chain wear, bad shifting) at 18mm offset. As bike manufacturers add cogs the dimensions change. They make the chains narrower, tighten cog spacing, etc. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html. By the time you are trying to make 10 speeds (4mm cog spacing and 37mm cluster width) work on a single chainring you need your chainring to be centered really well on your cluster. I would really want to be within 2mm of centered, more than that and it is better to stop using the worst rear cog. Fewer speeds don't necessarily help, they have more cog spacing and the chains are less flexible, but 7 speed spacing (5mm cog to cog and 32mm overall cluster width) is more tolerant, 5mm off is pretty OK with 7 speed spacing. And keep in mind that the TDSZ2 is stronger than you are, the engineers weren't designing for motors, at most they were designing to a tandem with two strong riders.
Tongsheng specifies 50.2mm chainline http://www.tsbicycle.net/products_detail/productId=136.html
View attachment 3
I don't trust the cross-section drawing because it shows 50.2mm with a flat chainring but... I measured 50.7mm on my unit so 50.2mm is close, 50mm is standard on mountain bikes, 145mm is standard on road bikes.
The stock chainring is dished 5mm. Using a flat chainring (the spider is 110mm BCD (bolt circle diameter) so they are common) increases chainline 5mm, so really the stock 42T chainring is the way to go for most cases. 50.7mm is really not bad, so the talk of an inherently terrible chainline is not true when the TDSZ2 fits the bike well. But the TDSZ2 doesn't fit all bikes well (and good guidance about what you need in a frame is not easy to find before you buy, I'm trying to give some of that here). So:
50.7mm applies to a 68mm BB. 73mm BB bumps it up 2.5mm
The gear reduction housing almost touches my chainstays, and I have steel road chainstays which are the most compact.
View attachment 1
You really need the TDSZ2 main casting to seat against the bottom bracket tube. If it can't because the gear reduction is touching the chain stay you will stress the casting in a really bad way when you tighten the M33.5 lock nut. Don't do that. Use shim washers until the casting seats (increases chainline), grind the casting locally (do at our own risk) or dent the chainstay (only on a steel frame and also at your own risk).
So it is really nice if it fits your 68mm bottom bracket frame. OK, so what can be done about chainline if it too large? (too small is easy, use a non-dished chainring).
1. (easy and cheap, 1mm). Use 10mm inside diameter 1mm thick shim washers McMaster Carr 98089A385 gives dimensions to look for.
2. (harder, not expensive, 3mm) I haven't done this because my chainline is OK, but I am confident it would work. The 42T dished chainring is steel so it has decent thread strength if tapped. The chainring nut is on the inside, If the nut is removed thicker spacers can be used. Tap the existing 10mm holes 7/16-20 UNF. Drill out the spider to 7/16 inch (11.1mm) taking care to keep centered. Use 10mm inside diameter spacers (it looks to me like up to 3mm would work) and assemble directly into the chainring. Grind or shim the bolts to exact length so they don't protrude. If you go metric I think you really want to go fine thread (M12x1.25), even though it is less common. It should be OK but the chainring holes will need to be drilled to 10.9mm before tapping. 7/16-20 is easier if you can get the tap and bolts.
3. (easy, $100, 5mm). Buy the custom 10mm offset 42T chainring made for the TDSZ2. http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p65/42_Tooth_Narrow%2FWide_CNC_7075_T6_Chainring_%2810mm_offset%29_for_TSDZ2.html
4. (variable difficulty and results) Fuss with your cluster. Freehub cassettes can be manipulated, check the web. You can put nine 10 speed cogs on a 7 speed freehub body. You can stop using the worst cog. You can reduce the clearance from the smallest cog to the dropout by moving spacers from the cluster side to the other end of the axle (no bad effects so long as the chain doesn't rub, but you have to re-dish the wheel). Bafang BBS people have a thread that covers a lot of this. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84097
My take overall is that Q factor is easy to make way better, and the chainline is not bad if you have a good frame fit. But if you don't have a good fit it can be a real problem. If I was thinking whether to buy I would be pretty confident if my frame was steel, my bottom bracket was 68mm wide, and my chainstays did not look wide compared to the picture above. If the frame fit looked iffy I would ask questions on this forum before buying.
John and Cecil
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Hmm, I wonder if those bafang cranks are the same length as the stock ones. If you put one on one side and ran the stock crank on the other side it might center the pedals to the frame better (since the motor cranks are offset to one side quite a bit when inserted all the way into the bb).
As for the epoxy reinforcement one does not need to reinforce the entire seam, only the portion of the seam where clearance is not an issue could be reinforced. Perhaps it will not help enough though.
As for the epoxy reinforcement one does not need to reinforce the entire seam, only the portion of the seam where clearance is not an issue could be reinforced. Perhaps it will not help enough though.
John and Cecil said:
They are 170mm long, same as the Tongsheng cranks. The Shimano ebike has 175mm cranks if you want longer.
https://www.ebikeoutpost.com/products/shimano-steps-ec-6000-crank-arm-set?variant=31060023241
They are available but more expensive and I can't tell what Q factor would be. Visually they look narrower than Tongsheng but maybe not as narrow as Bafang.
I think you are right that using Tongsheng only on the left would center the pedals better on the frame. I'm a long-time cyclist so I am used to the pedals not being centered, they never are on derailleur bikes. As a creature of habit the part that bugged me was the wide stance.
John and Cecil
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Yes, I did not even realize they weren't centered until someone mentioned it here. Then I measured mine and saw they are offset quite a bit from the center tube on the frame. I figured I had not noticed because it has been like 30+ years since I rode a bike! 
MaartenL
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I want to use the TSDZ2 for my Fat Bike:
Fat 8.1 specs:
Wheels 26"
Tires: Kenda Juggernaut Sport 26″x4.00
Frame: Aluminium 6061
Disc Brakes: Tektro Aquila Mechanical Disc
Gears: 8 Speed Shimano Clarius
Chain: KMC -72
Cassette: 8 Speed HG41
Dropout: 197mm
Bracket for midmotor: 120mm
I will buy a kit from http://www.future-bike.it/shop/kit-di-trasformazione-3/kit-active-torque-fat-con-batteria/
It's the only place I know were I can buy a motor which will fit my frame...
They call it Active Torque, anyway.
They offer:
500 W option with 120mm bracket and
48V 17Ah battery in bottle form which can be removed
Thumb controller for assist control
Control display with USB
Metal Gearings as standard
Speed sensor (I think)
no Throttle
no Brake Levers
Price: 1192 EURO / 1400 USD
Reading about the chainline and everything I'm wondering if this motor would be a good fit for my bike. It's really hard to find a solution which will fit.
I want to have a Torque Sensor based setup. And I like something to climb hard short hills off-road / simple town cruising with a topspeed of 45km/h max.
Fat 8.1 specs:
Wheels 26"
Tires: Kenda Juggernaut Sport 26″x4.00
Frame: Aluminium 6061
Disc Brakes: Tektro Aquila Mechanical Disc
Gears: 8 Speed Shimano Clarius
Chain: KMC -72
Cassette: 8 Speed HG41
Dropout: 197mm
Bracket for midmotor: 120mm
I will buy a kit from http://www.future-bike.it/shop/kit-di-trasformazione-3/kit-active-torque-fat-con-batteria/
It's the only place I know were I can buy a motor which will fit my frame...
They call it Active Torque, anyway.
They offer:
500 W option with 120mm bracket and
48V 17Ah battery in bottle form which can be removed
Thumb controller for assist control
Control display with USB
Metal Gearings as standard
Speed sensor (I think)
no Throttle
no Brake Levers
Price: 1192 EURO / 1400 USD
Reading about the chainline and everything I'm wondering if this motor would be a good fit for my bike. It's really hard to find a solution which will fit.
I want to have a Torque Sensor based setup. And I like something to climb hard short hills off-road / simple town cruising with a topspeed of 45km/h max.
feketehegyi
100 W
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- Jul 11, 2018
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I've created an Android app to act as LCD Display for TSDZ2.
[youtube]ttrdwND6kCI[/youtube]
[youtube]ttrdwND6kCI[/youtube]
casainho
10 GW
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Android app would be perfect for the ones that would prefer no LCD on the ebike!! While I use an LCD, there are users of KT motor controllers that prefer the Bluetooth Android version/no LCD. For TSDZ2, this must be DIY in terms of hardware to add the Bluetooth and the power switch.feketehegyi said:
John and Cecil said:Yes, I did not even realize they weren't centered until someone mentioned it here. Then I measured mine and saw they are offset quite a bit from the center tube on the frame. I figured I had not noticed because it has been like 30+ years since I rode a bike!
Probably due to the wide stance you are used to after riding moto's for those years. But anyone that has a good amount of time in at the pedals likes to have a low a Q factor as is reasonable given the circumstances of the bikes design. As mentioned it is not a matter of perfectly centering the cranks relative to the center line of the frame as there will always be offset to the drive side due to the chainring(s). Q factor is not as critical as chain line which saves wear on the drive train but usually both go hand in hand.
As seen in the pic the non drive side is as close as it can be but the drive side is also as close as it can be due to the housing already set into a dent in the chain stay. 190.5mm Q factor measured outside of crank arm to outside of crank arm. My front hub road bikes are 175mm. Not a huge difference but as it is possible to sometime get to that figure and I am going to try to get there. Only possible with an integrated motor though.
"Are you seeing integrated motor frames that are cheap? Where?"
Look on AliExpress and the post on the general forum here about the Carbon Fiber frame.
MaartenL said:
If you search 120mm in this thread you can see that others have used a 120mm conversion kit from Future-bike.it. That can give you a feeling about how well the conversion is managed. Apparently it is a factory TSDZ2 with adaptation to 120mm. Figure out how people handle the torque plate, your chainstays are too wide for the stock plate.
As far as chainline, if your frame will let you seat the TSDZ2 against the bottom bracket (more on that in a sec) you will get a chainline of 76.7mm. Here are the calculations:
TSDZ2 chainline is 50.7mm on a 68mm bottom bracket. 68/2 + 16.7 = 50.7. For 120mm: 120/2 + 16.7 = 76.7mm.
Now go to your bike and measure your chainline. You can google 'sheldon brown chainline' for instructions. If it is within a couple of mm of 76.7mm you are good if the unit will seat. If not https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=2800#p1396680 talks about options.
Will the TSDZ2 seat against the end of the bottom bracket or will the reduction drive housing interfere somewhere? I wish I could help with a template or something. It looks pretty good to me. Here is a photos you can try to compare against
Finally bottom bracket diameter, I think the maximum diameter the unit will slip over is about 47mm. You can check that. You will likely have to grind off the cable casing guide visible in your photo.
John and Cecil
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MaartenL said:
There is an online retailer(s) that sells just the extension for the tsdz2 so you can use it on a fatbike. Here is a link to one but it is currently out of stock.
http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p68/TSDZ2-Fat-Bike-Adapter
here is another place:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extension-Bike-Active-Torque-Motor/dp/B072JYSNN8
You do not have to buy it in a kit, you can order the adapter separately. I would suggest getting the 52v version and a 52v battery.
AWD said:
Is this what you are referring to?
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/WINICE-36V-Ebike-Frame-29er-Boost-148-12mm-Full-Suspension-Mountain-Electric-Bicycle-Frameset-E-02with/108381_32888389061.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.13.413e68d2T1UJ40&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10152_10151_10065_10344_10130_10068_10324_10547_10342_10325_10546_10343_10340_10548_10341_10545_10696_10084_10083_10618_10307_10059_100031_10103_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb201603_1,ppcSwitch_5_ppcChannel&algo_expid=7813b411-3fbd-4a3a-9dc7-dce75d848264-2&algo_pvid=7813b411-3fbd-4a3a-9dc7-dce75d848264&priceBeautifyAB=0
I go there searching 'carbon ebike frame' in aliexpress.
It takes a Bafang integrated motor
https://www.bafang-e.com/en/components/component/motor/mm-g330250.html
That shows a spindle length of 150mm.
The two spindles are the same length, so with the same cranks you would get the same Q factor (182mm with Bafang cranks)
Someone took the trouble of finding Q factor for several integrated mid-drives
https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/bicycle-q-factor-definition-ebike-mid-drive-motor-q-factor-list.23133/
Yamaha PW-X Q Factor Length: 168 mm
Shimano E8000 Q Factor Length: 175 mm
Brose Drive T, TF, S Q Factor Length: 179 mm
Bosch Performance Line Q Factor Length: 180 mm
So the big name drives are a shorter by 2mm to 14mm.
The big bang for the buck is switching from TSDZ2 to Bafang cranks (which we both have done). That drops Q factor 28mm and costs about $30 to do.
John and Cecil
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MaartenL said:
There is an online retailer(s) that sells just the extension for the tsdz2 so you can use it on a fatbike. Here is a link to one but it is currently out of stock.
http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p68/TSDZ2-Fat-Bike-Adapter
here is another place:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extension-Bike-Active-Torque-Motor/dp/B072JYSNN8
You do not have to buy it in a kit, you can order the adapter separately. I would suggest getting the 52v version and a 52v battery. I think 45kph will depend on weight. Our bike with rider and gear is about 275 lbs with 3" wide tires and 52v 750w motor and cruising speed without pedaling is probably closer to 30kph. Perhaps a bbshd would get you closer to 45kph, but as far as i know they do not have a torque sensor available.
Also, if you wish to climb steep hills you will probably want to upgrade the rear cassette to a wide ratio with a much larger 1st gear.
John and Cecil
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casainho said:
That is pretty neat. I think I would rather have that than the assist level. Who needs assist settings when we can just configure the power level on the fly from 1 to 16 amps
I wish they put a few programmable buttons on the display though. I would love to have a button that would turn off assist completely with one press, plus a button for minimum assist level and a button for max power. The rest of the assist levels do not really matter if I have to cycle through them but off, on, and minimum are all settings that become necessary from unexpected situations and then I get distracted cycling through pass levels when I should be concentrating on the issue at hand.
casainho
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I implemented in a way that is fast to change power level (watts). Current level (amps) is not supposed the be changed often.John and Cecil said:casainho said:
That is pretty neat. I think I would rather have that than the assist level. Who needs assist settings when we can just configure the power level on the fly from 1 to 16 amps
Yes, maybe up and down buttons could be used to increased/decrease the assist power and not to scale(current assist level) the torque sensor value.
I think are some options but we need to test to discover which ones we prefer - we can have a few and they can be selectable.
I want to implemented the selection of each assist level value, on the LCD.
MaartenL
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Hey TomTom50 and others...
Well I did some measurements to see how it would all fit.
The bottom bracket diameter seems to be 35-37mm.
The Chainline is around 77mm:
And another two pictures from the bottom of the bracket:
Seems all fine no? Or should I get another Chainring?
Well I did some measurements to see how it would all fit.
The bottom bracket diameter seems to be 35-37mm.
The Chainline is around 77mm:
And another two pictures from the bottom of the bracket:
Seems all fine no? Or should I get another Chainring?
Hillhater
100 TW
There is a thread on new integrated motor bikes further down in this forum....not all cheap options though.tomtom50 said:
But i posted this commet before..
"complete bikes apearing daily for the Bafang Ultra and Max drive units..
Some well below $2k
,..EG...https://ansbernbikes.en.alibaba.com/product/60774206054-806314918/2018_Hot_Sale_CE_Approved_27_5_3_0_Full_Suspension_Bafang_48V_1000W_21AH_Mountain_Electric_Bike.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.prewdfa4cf.19.6c5e7cb5hpRLYi
https://ansbernbikes.en.alibaba.com/?sp ... 15e5UzuiwM
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