New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[feketehegyi]

fyi, my latest mod: DIY throttle on 6 pin model .
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpu4CbKHr9CQxGnL1ZFdHTutcmsNGWe6a

 

[Ilyak]

Apologies if this is a silly question. Have just installed a tsdz2 and looking at simplest upgrade to open source and cooling.
Has anyone tried just putting transformer oil in casing around motor and/or in void in plastic cover under sprocket to add thermal conductivity and also thermal mass to absorb power peaks?
Would seem to avoid needing to dismantle extensively and will avoid hotspots, keep waterproof.
Is it difficult to keep sealed in or does it interfere with grease?

 

[michih.]

Is it possible to flash the new 2020 controllers?

Mfg Michael

 

[Doohickey]

Apologies if this is a silly question. Have just installed a tsdz2 and looking at simplest upgrade to open source and cooling.
Has anyone tried just putting transformer oil in casing around motor and/or in void in plastic cover under sprocket to add thermal conductivity and also thermal mass to absorb power peaks?
Would seem to avoid needing to dismantle extensively and will avoid hotspots, keep waterproof.
Is it difficult to keep sealed in or does it interfere with grease?

The motor is not sealed, so it will make it's way into the inside of the inner motor (i.e. the rotor / magnets / windings), and from there will make it's way though the gears and leak out.

IIRC someone tried it way back in this thread.

 

[Elinx]

... cooling.
Has anyone tried just putting transformer oil in casing around motor a.....

For cooling there is also a seperate topic where the most solutions (from different topics too) are listed.
NexusG has experience with filling the TSDZ2 with engine oil

 

[famichiki]

Is this a roller bearing and is it somehow removable? Does anybody know the bearing code of it?

 

[Elinx]

Is this a roller bearing and is it somehow removable? Does anybody know the bearing code of it?

It is a needle bearing HK2212
But there is mentioned also the HK2214 or even HK2216

 

[johncvg]

Newbie here so please be gentle ....

Converted my very standard road bike with the TSDZ2 and battery from pswpower around 6 weeks ago and delighted with the results.
But has got progressively noisier until now it is an embarrasment to ride...

The noise is only present when the motor is giving power -- when free wheeling or e.g. +25km it immediately stops ..
It is a howling grinding sound like metal against metal.

pswpower have offered to replace the part that is broken so I stripped the motor down today expecting to find loads of damaged parts and iron filings only to find ... nothing..
I haven't got a circlip pliers large enough to get the main cover plate off to see the large gear wheel/ sprag clutch but the motor, blue gear etc etc look all very clean and in good condition -- have only done 450kms on it.
My question is does anyone have an idea what is the source of the noise -- I suspect the "big gear" http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-2s-mact or the "blue gear" clutches but have no experience of this to know for sure?

here is a short vid with the noise .. it stops as soon as the pedalling stops
https://www.dropbox.com/s/th0ed975f6qbfls/noise.mp4?dl=0

Any advice gratefully accepted..
Thanks

 

[Jaybee258]

Hi Guys
Apologies if this is not the right place for this type of help, but here goes.
I got my 860 display and TSDZ2 flashed and installed on my bike, but there are some issues.....
1. It takes 50 seconds to boot up
2. The screen shows " error brakes" on the black and white intro screen. There are no brake sensors fitted.
3. At this point, the only way ahead is via the configuration screen.
4. The configuration menus seem to work fine and I can then go to the main screen
5. There is only one main screen
6. I can change the indicated assist levels, but that is about it on the main screen.
7. On cycling, there is no electrical assist power to the wheels, no speed is shown and no power is indicated.
8. In ' technical' everything remains at 0 while cycling.
9. The battery shows full but reads 0.0v

I have changed some default settings for the wheel, battery and motor, but just basic ones. The flashing seemed to be successful at the time. Has anybody got any ideas of what to try next?

There are some great people on this forum freely offering time and knowledge, so a big thanks in advance. Also a big thanks for all the development from casainho and his willing team. Well done guys

TSDZ2 motor is not initializing, hence the error "error brakes" because could be the brakes active also. Make sure you did flash the firmware on TSDZ2 and the UART tx and rx connections are ok.

Still struggling I am sorry, we have reflashed the motor but I think that this was ok already. We have a 8 pin loom, so with the throttle connection. All we are left with is a display to motor controller wiring problem I think. We have followed the following pattern. I quote the Bafang colour first, .... Brown to blue, orange to red, black to black, green to brown, white to yellow. Watched the jbalatufube video where he had crossed TX and RX. Maybe we have done the same? Does anyone have a definitive mapping of the colours to connect a Bafang 860c to an 8 wire look please? Again, the symptom is that when we power up the display, we see 'error brakes'. Many thanks all.

 

[famichiki]

Is this a roller bearing and is it somehow removable? Does anybody know the bearing code of it?

It is a needle bearing HK2212
But there is mentioned also the HK2214 or even HK2216

So there are two roller bearings used on the torque sensor? Because there is one visible on the other end from the non-drive side. I found the newer models use 2214 and older 2212.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7500#p1573878

Also that bearing list is incomplete and a bit strange (carter side?). The other Google translated versions from Jobike posted on here are hard to understand too, I'll see if I can put together a better one.

 

[Elinx]

.......
So there are two roller bearings used on the torque sensor? Because there is one visible on the other end from the non-drive side......

No, there is just one bearing on the torque sensor (HK2214 as you said, ID=22mm)
The other one on the non drive side is one roller bearing (6902RS ID=15mm) on new type and two on old type TSDZ2 axle.
On the drive side there is the sprag clutch bearing (CSK30P, ID=30mm).

 

[famichiki]

No, there is just one bearing on the torque sensor (HK2214 as you said, ID=22mm)
The other one on the non drive side is one roller bearing (6902RS ID=15mm) on new type and two on old type TSDZ2 axle.
On the drive side there is the sprag clutch bearing (CSK30P, ID=30mm).

This photo from the repair guide (and my previous photo) show a roller bearing on the non-drive side which sits up against that axle bearing. The wear marks on the torque sensor indicate where it fits. However I'm not sure if there is an additional roller bearing on the drive side end of the torque sensor, is it just a bushing? There's some additional hi-res pics in this post:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=79788&start=6350#p1520207

 

[Elinx]

......
However I'm not sure if there is an additional roller bearing on the drive side end of the torque sensor, is it just a bushing?

This is what I see of the torque sensor in another picture (I have added the bearingtypes)
The yellow question mark on your picture is the HK2214

edit:
See for confirmation:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7600#p1576436

 

[famichiki]

This is what I see of the torque sensor in another picture (I have added the bearingtypes)
The yellow question mark on your picture is the HK2214
bearingplaces.jpg

Right, well it looks like there's actually two then but the other isn't shown on your diagram. One captive on the torque sensor at the drive side, and another the torque sensor slides into on the non-drive side up against 6902RS. If you look at my previous photo you can see the marking on the non-drive one is also HK2214.

How to remove the drive side one is the question. It looks like you need to unscrew the plate on the torque sensor and somehow disconnect the wiring, unless that all sits below the circumference of the torque sensor shaft?

Edit: Nope.. it looks to be captive. Has anyone here actually removed theirs?

 

[Elinx]

.....
Right, well it looks like there's actually two then but the other isn't shown on your diagram. .....

This picture shows 2x HK2214 bearings, but that is the only one I could find here.

So the diagram would be:

 

[famichiki]

.....
Right, well it looks like there's actually two then but the other isn't shown on your diagram. .....

This picture shows 2x HK2214 bearings, but that is the only one I could find here.

Thanks. Sounds like they ran into the same problem, I wonder if they ever managed to get the captive bearing off. I may just try to inject or pack extra grease under there somehow.

Also my 2mm wider high quality needle roller bearings have arrived, I will fit them next time I have the motor apart. Does anyone know the best way to disconnect the hall sensor?

 

[Balmorhea]

Wow. It looks like they chose to use a grievously undersized crank spindle diameter for no real reason at all, given that most of the spindle is 22mm. Awesome.

 

[famichiki]

As much as I can tell, it looks like the older versions of the motors were put together better and with closer tolerances. Older models have the double non-drive side bearings, proper shims on the axle and sprag clutch, and a tighter fitting sprag clutch with wider inner race contact area that was difficult to remove without a puller. On the newer model the sprag clutch fitment is sloppy and it just slips off by hand. Compare the photo below with the ones in my previous post here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7525#p1574456

 

[knutselmaaster]

Newbie here so please be gentle ....

Converted my very standard road bike with the TSDZ2 and battery from pswpower around 6 weeks ago and delighted with the results.
But has got progressively noisier until now it is an embarrasment to ride...

The noise is only present when the motor is giving power -- when free wheeling or e.g. +25km it immediately stops ..
It is a howling grinding sound like metal against metal.

pswpower have offered to replace the part that is broken so I stripped the motor down today expecting to find loads of damaged parts and iron filings only to find ... nothing..
I haven't got a circlip pliers large enough to get the main cover plate off to see the large gear wheel/ sprag clutch but the motor, blue gear etc etc look all very clean and in good condition -- have only done 450kms on it.
My question is does anyone have an idea what is the source of the noise -- I suspect the "big gear" http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-2s-mact or the "blue gear" clutches but have no experience of this to know for sure?

here is a short vid with the noise .. it stops as soon as the pedalling stops
https://www.dropbox.com/s/th0ed975f6qbfls/noise.mp4?dl=0

Any advice gratefully accepted..
Thanks

On some bikes, the big gear housing (just behind the chain wheel) is pushing against the bike frame (the horizontal chainstay) when the motor is tightened. This pushes the housing against the big gear with loud noise as a result.
If that is the case, you should see scraping marks on the inside of the housing.
To resolve this, put a big ring / shim between the motor and the frame (bottom bracket) so that the whole motor moves to the right.
The housing should be free all around, only touching the frame in the middle at the bottom bracket.

 

[mctubster]

Newbie here so please be gentle ....

Converted my very standard road bike with the TSDZ2 and battery from pswpower around 6 weeks ago and delighted with the results.
But has got progressively noisier until now it is an embarrasment to ride...

The noise is only present when the motor is giving power -- when free wheeling or e.g. +25km it immediately stops ..
It is a howling grinding sound like metal against metal.

pswpower have offered to replace the part that is broken so I stripped the motor down today expecting to find loads of damaged parts and iron filings only to find ... nothing..
I haven't got a circlip pliers large enough to get the main cover plate off to see the large gear wheel/ sprag clutch but the motor, blue gear etc etc look all very clean and in good condition -- have only done 450kms on it.
My question is does anyone have an idea what is the source of the noise -- I suspect the "big gear" http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-2s-mact or the "blue gear" clutches but have no experience of this to know for sure?

here is a short vid with the noise .. it stops as soon as the pedalling stops
https://www.dropbox.com/s/th0ed975f6qbfls/noise.mp4?dl=0

Any advice gratefully accepted..
Thanks

If the motor is off and you pedal do you still get the noise at all? I don't remember removing a circlip to take the drive side cover off?

 

[johncvg]

Newbie here so please be gentle ....

Converted my very standard road bike with the TSDZ2 and battery from pswpower around 6 weeks ago and delighted with the results.
But has got progressively noisier until now it is an embarrasment to ride...

The noise is only present when the motor is giving power -- when free wheeling or e.g. +25km it immediately stops ..
It is a howling grinding sound like metal against metal.

pswpower have offered to replace the part that is broken so I stripped the motor down today expecting to find loads of damaged parts and iron filings only to find ... nothing..
I haven't got a circlip pliers large enough to get the main cover plate off to see the large gear wheel/ sprag clutch but the motor, blue gear etc etc look all very clean and in good condition -- have only done 450kms on it.
My question is does anyone have an idea what is the source of the noise -- I suspect the "big gear" http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-2s-mact or the "blue gear" clutches but have no experience of this to know for sure?

here is a short vid with the noise .. it stops as soon as the pedalling stops
https://www.dropbox.com/s/th0ed975f6qbfls/noise.mp4?dl=0

Any advice gratefully accepted..
Thanks

On some bikes, the big gear housing (just behind the chain wheel) is pushing against the bike frame (the horizontal chainstay) when the motor is tightened. This pushes the housing against the big gear with loud noise as a result.
If that is the case, you should see scraping marks on the inside of the housing.
To resolve this, put a big ring / shim between the motor and the frame (bottom bracket) so that the whole motor moves to the right.
The housing should be free all around, only touching the frame in the middle at the bottom bracket.

Thanks knutselmaaster for your answer
There is plenty of clearence all round the motor etc .. had no problems installing .
When I dismantled the motor I could see no signs of abrasion or debris any where..

 

[Waynemarlow]

We are finding within our group that those who run the units consistently with high power, that their motor units do become noisier quicker. We have found that re greasing the big gear and helical drive gear helps as it is in reality a steel on steel gear that is working hard in a non oil bath situation.

The only way we have found to quieten them down is to regularly regrease them before they become noisy. The other thing we have noticed is the old cross cut gear on the early motors, although noisy initially, seem to quieten down once worn in and don't seem to change much with a lot of abuse.

 

[johncvg]

Newbie here so please be gentle ....

Converted my very standard road bike with the TSDZ2 and battery from pswpower around 6 weeks ago and delighted with the results.
But has got progressively noisier until now it is an embarrasment to ride...

The noise is only present when the motor is giving power -- when free wheeling or e.g. +25km it immediately stops ..
It is a howling grinding sound like metal against metal.

pswpower have offered to replace the part that is broken so I stripped the motor down today expecting to find loads of damaged parts and iron filings only to find ... nothing..
I haven't got a circlip pliers large enough to get the main cover plate off to see the large gear wheel/ sprag clutch but the motor, blue gear etc etc look all very clean and in good condition -- have only done 450kms on it.
My question is does anyone have an idea what is the source of the noise -- I suspect the "big gear" http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-2s-mact or the "blue gear" clutches but have no experience of this to know for sure?

here is a short vid with the noise .. it stops as soon as the pedalling stops
https://www.dropbox.com/s/th0ed975f6qbfls/noise.mp4?dl=0

Any advice gratefully accepted..
Thanks

If the motor is off and you pedal do you still get the noise at all? I don't remember removing a circlip to take the drive side cover off?

Thanks mctubster for your answer
With the motor off or on and the and pedaling while there is no assist ( e.g. at speeds higher than 25km) everything is silent.
As soon as the assit kicks in the howling starts.

Re circlip - sorry - I meant the large circlip on the main gear

 

[johncvg]

We are finding within our group that those who run the units consistently with high power, that their motor units do become noisier quicker. We have found that re greasing the big gear and helical drive gear helps as it is in reality a steel on steel gear that is working hard in a non oil bath situation.

The only way we have found to quieten them down is to regularly regrease them before they become noisy. The other thing we have noticed is the old cross cut gear on the early motors, although noisy initially, seem to quieten down once worn in and don't seem to change much with a lot of abuse.

Hi Wayne, I know it is very hard to get any impression of sound across in words but by noisy and noisier what do you mean?
When I first installed it had quite a pleasent "hum" that only being on the bike you could hear.
It has now increased to a mechanical howl that causes pedestrians to turn their heads as you go past and if u are catching another cyclist they have already heard you before you catch them! No bell needed!
Will in anycase apply more grease as a test.

 

[Waynemarlow]

At that sort of level of sound, you have an un lubricated gear mesh which is very wrong, or a bearing which is damaged.