New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[mctubster]

Thanks mctubster for your answer
With the motor off or on and the and pedaling while there is no assist ( e.g. at speeds higher than 25km) everything is silent.
As soon as the assit kicks in the howling starts.

Re circlip - sorry - I meant the large circlip on the main gear

Can you try running the motor off the bike? Walk mode or the virtual throttle? Is the noise still there? If so circlip pliers time

 

[johncvg]

Thanks mctubster for your answer
With the motor off or on and the and pedaling while there is no assist ( e.g. at speeds higher than 25km) everything is silent.
As soon as the assit kicks in the howling starts.

Re circlip - sorry - I meant the large circlip on the main gear

Can you try running the motor off the bike? Walk mode or the virtual throttle? Is the noise still there? If so circlip pliers time

Indeed -- the next step..

 

[famichiki]

Another option for blue gear grease is Inox MX6 and the manufacturer has confirmed it's safe for plastic gears. It's a synthetic PAO base extreme pressure grease using an organo-clay bentone thickener and with PTFE. It's available in various sizes, I have a 30g tube here and it looks like easily enough cover the gear.
https://www.inoxmx.com/products/mx6-food-grade-grease/

If you are unable to find it, it may be worthwhile investigating other food-grade greases available in your region.

I was originally considering using this for the roller clutch bearing inside the gear, but because it's extreme pressure it could slip and so is unsuitable. I posted about another good grease for that and the sprag clutch, SKF LGMT 2.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1571932#p1571932

Is there a lubricants section in the wiki this information could be added to?

 

[famichiki]

Investigating the different revisions of torque sensors further. The separate ring has been mentioned before, there's the older 2 button and newer 3 button versions.

However, the main torque sensor assembly has an older version with no central riser (which used shim washers) and a newer version with added riser and no shims.

The shims on the older version stop the sprag clutch & big gear from sitting flush against and rubbing on the sensor assembly. In the still from Jbalat's replacement video there looks to be some contact evident, possibly from his worn out sprag clutch.

The newer version has a central riser to avoid this, which adds about a 0.5mm gap so it doesn't require shims for this purpose. But even new sprag clutches still have some wobble between the races. It doesn't look like much, but is exaggerated at the outside of the chain ring.

In addition to adding shim washers to stop in-out play in the new version, I'm considering adding a 0.5mm thick teflon shim around the outside of the central riser that is wide enough to cover the entire sprag clutch to stop the wobble within the sprag clutch itself. But my concern is that it may transfer that wobble into force on the torque sensor assembly, potentially damaging that.

Has anyone's sprag clutch developed so much play that it contacted and damaged the torque sensor?

 

[bs47G]

I have my TSDZ2 with KT-LCD3 bought and installed on the bike in early Spring 2019 with KT-LCD3-v0.18.2.hex and TSDZ2-v0.18.2.hex.

Now I refreshed the topic and I see that there are prepared many of new features in new software but KT-LCD3 which I have is not promoted, only 860c/850c.

My question is, may I install latest released software version for TSDZ2 and KT-LCD3?

I mean:
From TSDZ2-v1.0.0 chapter zip I found the latest TSDZ2-v0.57.3.hex - hope this is the latest one.
From v0.20.0-beta.1 chapter I found KT-LCD3-v0.20.0-beta.1.hex - this looks like is the latest hex file available for KT-LCD3.

If not, suggestion are welcome what the latest possible versions (names of hex files) in my case. Thanks.

 

[Elinx]

Continuing on my quest for removing play......

I was reading some posts on the German forum and saw a creative solution with 6902 2RS axle bearings.
Instead of adding one extra bearing on the non drive side behind the dustcap, they add also on the spiderside an extra bearing, that works against sideway play of the sprag clutch bearing.
Some replaced the dustcaps too for bearings. In that last case they have added 3 extra bearings in total and claimed the play was gone. So no sheets or feeler gauges between axle, torqueshaft and bearings, but the axle full bearings from crank to crank.
Could be the use of a 14mm wide needle bearing (4902 2RS), on the non drive side, be even better?


Picture from michih.
Picture from Michih.

 

[Elinx]

.....

My question is, may I install latest released software version for TSDZ2 and KT-LCD3?

.....
If not, suggestion are welcome what the latest possible versions (names of hex files) in my case. Thanks.

v.0.20 b1 is the latest and final release for KT lcd3.
If you want the newer release you have to update to 860C

 

[RicMcK]

Continuing on my quest for removing play......

I was reading some posts on the German forum and saw a creative solution with 6902RS axle bearings.
Instead of adding one extra bearing on the non drive side behind the dustcap, they ad also on the spider side an extra bearing, that works against sideway play of the sprag clutch bearing. Some replaced the dustcaps also for bearings. In that last case they have added 3 extra bearings.

I like this modification of adding a bearing to the spider. Does anyone know the bearing # for this?

 

[Retrorockit]

Continuing on my quest for removing play......

I was reading some posts on the German forum and saw a creative solution with 6902RS axle bearings.
Instead of adding one extra bearing on the non drive side behind the dustcap, they ad also on the spider side an extra bearing, that works against sideway play of the sprag clutch bearing. Some replaced the dustcaps also for bearings. In that last case they have added 3 extra bearings.

From the photo I saw replacing the outer seal in the crank adapter with a sealed bearing won't add support to the shaft. It might take some play out of the sprag clutch. But I don't think it will help the broken shaft issue.

 

[Elinx]

I like this modification of adding a bearing to the spider. Does anyone know the bearing # for this?

I understand you can use also 6902 2RS

 

[Elinx]

.....It might take some play out of the sprag clutch. But I don't think it will help the broken shaft issue.

It could be, but the modification is cheap and easy enough to try.
On the other hand if the complete axle is supported by bearings from crank to crank I think it could help a bit, against breaking too.
If you push hard on the pedal, the bearings distribute the force on the axle somewhat. But indeed, they can't do this for axle-torsion with a jump standing on both pedals.

 

[Basileios]

Hello, I am pretty sure that I cannot install the motor as is, is there anyone who has made it work for intergrated frames such as this? I'd like to see it or be advised on how to proceed, should the endeavour be possible. I quite like the open source firmware and the large following this motor has, it'd be great to make it fit on my bicycle, it is a Dahon Ios P7.

 

[Elinx]

.... it'd be great to make it fit on my bicycle, it is a Dahon Ios P7.....

Because you haven't upload a clear picture of your bottom bracket, I have searched for it,
But it is not easy to find a clear picture and I am not sure which of the two it is.
I don't know which you have, but I imho it is not possible with the first one. For the second one it depends of the dimensions. But it will not be easy and I don't know if the folding system isn't blocked.
Imho it is easier to add a hub motor.

 

[Basileios]

.... it'd be great to make it fit on my bicycle, it is a Dahon Ios P7.....

Imho it is easier to add a hub motor.

Thanks for the response, sadly it is the first type with the seat tube in front of the pedals. Would you have any hub motor suggestion?

 

[Elinx]

.... Would you have any hub motor suggestion?

I have no experience with hub motors, but it depends of you technical skills.
The easiest way is to buy a complete frontwheel, of the same size you have now, with inserted hub motor.
Otherwise you must insert spokes and motor yourself inside the rim.
If you go for a rear hub motor, then it depends which gearing you have, because I think it needs more modifiing with gears and chain.
There are special hub motors for small folding bikes. For the best you search for that.
Maybe you find more info in the building or motor forum.

 

[Retrorockit]

.....It might take some play out of the sprag clutch. But I don't think it will help the broken shaft issue.

It could be, but the modification is cheap and easy enough to try.
On the other hand if the complete axle is supported by bearings from crank to crank I think it could help a bit, against breaking too.
If you push hard on the pedal, the bearings distribute the force on the axle somewhat. But indeed, they can't do this for axle-torsion with a jump standing on both pedals.

I think that's exactly what's breaking the axles. The motor torque doesn't actually go through the shaft. It's added to the spider after the sprag clutch. So it seems loads from the rider are causing the problem. With a square cut snap ring groove the load will be focused there, not distributed through the shaft.

 

[famichiki]

I was reading some posts on the German forum and saw a creative solution with 6902 2RS axle bearings.

This is an interesting idea, if only there was a way to keep the drive side seal too. I also like your idea of using a roller bearing, seeing as though the torque sensor uses them anyway.

However my preliminary experiments show that simply adding a second bearing to the non-drive side is not very helpful. The tolerances are so large that the axle often spins freely without moving the inner race, or the outer race spins within the motor case. Firming the single bearing up with shim washers works better at removing play. I've received a pack of brass shim sheet in varying thicknesses to play with now too, metric sizes are .025mm, .050mm, .076mm and .127mm.

 

[Elinx]

.....
However my preliminary experiments show that simply adding a second bearing to the non-drive side is not very helpful.....
.... I've received a pack of brass shim sheet in varying thicknesses ....

Yes, you could be right with the tolerances, but supporting almost the complete axle must do someting with the play, because the support area is more. That is why I think a wider (14mm) bearing support maybe more than 2 smaller (7mm) ones.
But adding some sheet and rings are helpfull too. Even it is only between the additional bearings. Some has glued these bearings.
Could you please give a link where you found these brass sheets?
I was thinking to use steel feeler gauges, but softer brass is a lot better

 

[famichiki]

Could you please give a link where you found these brass sheets?
I was thinking to use steel feeler gauges, but softer brass is a lot better

I bought it from a hobby store on Ebay, search for brass shim. Prices vary, but packs like this can be found cheaply and it was about USD $12 including post.

The thing about firming up the non-drive side bearing with shim washers is that it forces it up against the existing roller bearing, essentially making it like an extra long bearing. This stops the bearing wobbling inside the case which makes a big difference.

 

[famichiki]

From the photo I saw replacing the outer seal in the crank adapter with a sealed bearing won't add support to the shaft. It might take some play out of the sprag clutch. But I don't think it will help the broken shaft issue.

Yes it doesn't look like it would help with the axle breakages on the drive side. Adding the second bearing to the non-drive side may help distribute the load outside of the circlip groove there, but it really needs to be shimmed for the best support.

 

[feketehegyi]

.... it'd be great to make it fit on my bicycle, it is a Dahon Ios P7.....

Imho it is easier to add a hub motor.

Thanks for the response, sadly it is the first type with the seat tube in front of the pedals. Would you have any hub motor suggestion?

I have TSDZ2 on my Dahon for years.

 

[Elinx]

...
I have TSDZ2 on my Dahon for years.

Imho is that the one with the seatpost behind the bottom bracket instead on front (1e picture) of it as basileios have.

 

[vass]

Little review off my TSDZ2 (48v motor 52V battery)

With the OSF, thermal pads and temp sensor is a damn good motor (never used it on oem form )
I have ridden some bosh and yamaha (entry level ones) and the TSDZ2 is in my opinion better and more powerfull (and with the osf way more flexible) .
Its so nice that i wanted only to comute with my old mtb and now i am buying a nice used full suspension because it got me hooked again on offroad bike riding (i have a enduro motorcycle so i like this stuff, but it this i can ride places i cant with it, also my hardtaill sucks on single tracks and it killing my back )

So if you have an old bike and can solder and use a computer (or have a friend that can do it) go for it

 

[sysrq]

Little review off my TSDZ2 (48v motor 52V battery)

With the OSF, thermal pads and temp sensor is a damn good motor (never used it on oem form )
I have ridden some bosh and yamaha (entry level ones) and the TSDZ2 is in my opinion better and more powerfull (and with the osf way more flexible) .
Its so nice that i wanted only to comute with my old mtb and now i am buying a nice used full suspension because it got me hooked again on offroad bike riding (i have a enduro motorcycle so i like this stuff, but it this i can ride places i cant with it, also my hardtaill sucks on single tracks and it killing my back )

So if you have an old bike and can solder and use a computer (or have a friend that can do it) go for it

36V version doesn't seem so powerful. Insufficient thermal management doesn't help for continuous loads either.

 

[famichiki]

I was reading some posts on the German forum and saw a creative solution with 6902 2RS axle bearings.
...
they add also on the spiderside an extra bearing, that works against sideway play of the sprag clutch bearing.

Looking at the Bafang motors, they appear to have an external drive side bearing like this with no other seal. Are they known for problems with water ingress?

Perhaps that was only the older models and the new models now have seals?