Street legal Cafe Racer build.

[dominik h]

Not cost, form factor and lead time.
1.These supplies are smaller than anything I can find that will do 113.4V.

If you can get 114V put of one that would be cool .
You could also use Eltek Flatpack 2 He 110.

Small is a 2kw Vertiv R48-2000E3 41x82x252mm 1,13kg or a 3kw Delta DPR3000B 41x82x265mm 1,3kg.
If you want to use two in series the CAN code for the Vertiv is here.
Vertiv CAn
With that you do not have to gget the solder Ironie, you just can programm them to your needs.

If I am able to find out the can codes for the delta I am not shure, they just arrived yesterday.

Left to right
Delta 3kw
Vertiv, 2kw
Eltek Flatpack S

 

[MDG]

I’m sure you’ve seen and read about this build? BMW R00: A conversion kit to turn your airhead electric

 

[PK2000]

I’m sure you’ve seen and read about this build? BMW R00: A conversion kit to turn your airhead electric

Yep, it seems decent enough. Bike aesthetics are an odd and very individual thing. I can't quite get my head around why they left the cylinder heads out on stalks... I rode this bike for a couple of weeks and it's only in the last few days that the bruises on my shins from kicking those cylinders every time I put a foot down have faded.

 

[PK2000]

If you can get 114V put of one that would be cool .
You could also use Eltek Flatpack 2 He 110.

Small is a 2kw Vertiv R48-2000E3 41x82x252mm 1,13kg or a 3kw Delta DPR3000B 41x82x265mm 1,3kg.
If you want to use two in series the CAN code for the Vertiv is here.
Vertiv CAn
With that you do not have to gget the solder Ironie, you just can programm them to your needs.

If I am able to find out the can codes for the delta I am not shure, they just arrived yesterday.

Left to right
Delta 3kw
Vertiv, 2kw
Eltek Flatpack S
View attachment 345841

Yeah, they're only slightly bigger than the one I have (41x110x210mm, 1,15Kg) and higher power. CAN would be nice, but it may actually make any modifications harder. 3KW might be nice... They all seem to be repurposed server supplies. There are some bespoke EV chargers on Alibaba, and some of the vendors will customise the voltage, but they are all fairly bulky with die cast cases and big fans...

Because it's an onboard charger, I want to limit the mains draw to 10A or less, just so I can plug it in anywhere so 2KW is about the max I can use.

I popped the lid off this morning.

It's actually a pretty cool bit of kit. The bottom third of the board is EMI filtering and power factor correction, which is nice to see. The output stage is dead nuts simple. A winding on that transformer goes through the diode, then the choke and caps. I didn't pull the controller board out, but there'll be a voltage divider driving an opto isolator to give feedback to the SMPS IC. There'll also be a similar setup for current limiting. I can see where the seller has tapped into these circuits to add the controls.

So the mod is just to pull the transformer apart, count the turns, wind on the right number, check the voltage rating on the diode and caps, and modify the voltage divider.

The supply has an enable switch, so I'll be able to give the BMS some control over the charging. Still not as nice as propper comms, but I think it will be a good compromise.

 

[dominik h]

... the one I have (41x110x210mm, 1,15Kg) ...
I popped the lid off this morning.
View attachment 345843

Because of the two fans I thought yours is way bigger.
Inside yours looks as tight as the Vertiv and the Delta.

If you are able to make the changes, then go for it.

A new option for small and leightweight chargers is good to know.

 

[floydr]

I am interested in how your gearbox turns out once finished. I have heard of belt drives, chain drives, direct drive to transfer power from electric motor to a driveshaft on a shaft driven Emotorcycle. I was planning on a direct drive if I ever get that far on one of my projects. But that may change as locating the motor to the center of bike and forward would simplify battery placement for me.
Later floyd

 

[quelsurprise]

Are Alien Rides way more $ for the cl1400? says they have it in stock

3Shul VESC Motor Controller CL1400

Now Comes with a wiring HarnessFeatures: Field Weakening and MTPA (Maximum Torque Per Amp) are supported. Internal Bluetooth module IMU for self-balancing applications (Onewheel, EUC, Robotics, etc.) Plenty of CPU resources are left so you can make your apps for the controller. Powered By...

alienrides.com

 

[PK2000]

Are Alien Rides way more $ for the cl1400? says they have it in stock

3Shul VESC Motor Controller CL1400

Now Comes with a wiring HarnessFeatures: Field Weakening and MTPA (Maximum Torque Per Amp) are supported. Internal Bluetooth module IMU for self-balancing applications (Onewheel, EUC, Robotics, etc.) Plenty of CPU resources are left so you can make your apps for the controller. Powered By...

alienrides.com

Thanks for the link. What I'd really like is to speak to someone who actually has one in a vehicle.

It seems to me that there are a lot of new and unproven controllers around. Curtis make one that fits the bill, I may yet look at that.

 

[scianiac]

Thanks for the link. What I'd really like is to speak to someone who actually has one in a vehicle.

You may want to ask around on the VESC Discord, the 3Shul controllers have their own section and in addition to of course being full of people who use them hackey who develops them is on there quite often.

I've looked a bit at people's feedback about them and it's mostly good but not perfect, although I don't know how you could not have occasional issues with such a powerful controller that people who may or may not have any idea what they are doing are hooking up to who knows what motor while it's running a firmware in active development with dozens of settings, some of which are experimental and almost all of which don't even warn your from doing something stupid. My point just being there is a reason that many traditional controller manufacturers don't like to deal with DIY applications and so I wonder how much their reputations are based on their user base mostly knowing why they are doing and vise versa.

 

[quelsurprise]

there's this FB one also
3Shul Vesc based controllers Help and Support

 

[PK2000]

You may want to ask around on the VESC Discord, the 3Shul controllers have their own section and in addition to of course being full of people who use them hackey who develops them is on there quite often.

I've looked a bit at people's feedback about them and it's mostly good but not perfect, although I don't know how you could not have occasional issues with such a powerful controller that people who may or may not have any idea what they are doing are hooking up to who knows what motor while it's running a firmware in active development with dozens of settings, some of which are experimental and almost all of which don't even warn your from doing something stupid. My point just being there is a reason that many traditional controller manufacturers don't like to deal with DIY applications and so I wonder how much their reputations are based on their user base mostly knowing why they are doing and vise versa.

Yep, all good points. I'd just like to see a couple of examples of the controllers meeting their spec in real world implementations. I'll check out those chats. Many thanks for the tips.

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

I'd recommend the Fardriver since it's a proven design that works fairly well in most cases, plus it's very powerful and as far as I've seen it is quite reliable. Real downside is the app and the documentation, which both suck.
3Shul looks interesting, especially the Vesc part, but it's a bit too new for my taste, there's not much actual return on experience and long term reliability is pretty much unknown.
Throttle feeling, snappiness and all that is generally tunable and can vary a lot depending on motor and battery choice, I bet they are pretty close.
That being said I don't think either of those would be a really bad choice.


Regarding the charger and while you're working on it, I suggest you, if possible, to try and make its power somewhat variable: quick charge for whenever you're in a hurry, and slow charge for whenever you aren't. This should help keep the battery in good shape for longer, as most lithium batteries still prefer slow charge.

Also, beware of the safety caps on these power supplies, I used to have a server PSU running as my main charger a few years ago and it almost caught on fire, the "safety" cap blew up for some unknown reason and the thing started to shoot smoke and sparks all over the place. Good thing I was right next to the bike at that time, or it might have been a much bigger issue.
No idea what caused it to blow up, but I thought I'd say this, just in case it helps you somehow.

 

[PK2000]

I'd recommend the Fardriver since it's a proven design that works fairly well in most cases, plus it's very powerful and as far as I've seen it is quite reliable. Real downside is the app and the documentation, which both suck.
3Shul looks interesting, especially the Vesc part, but it's a bit too new for my taste, there's not much actual return on experience and long term reliability is pretty much unknown.
Throttle feeling, snappiness and all that is generally tunable and can vary a lot depending on motor and battery choice, I bet they are pretty close.
That being said I don't think either of those would be a really bad choice.

I agree completely and for exactly those reasons. Right now I'm just trying to find someone with the 3Shul CL1400 and a QS180 that has actually got to the point of having ridden it. My concern is that Far driver are saying they have problems with the 1081800 drive and won't commit to a delivery date.
I'm not concerned at all about the quality of the Far Driver apps, we've already worked through all of that. Same goes for things like configurable throttle response. My throttle will go into the body control module I'm building, which will then control the motor drive. I can have any map I want.

I'm looking hard at a Curtis drive, they've been around forever.

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

and won't commit to a delivery date.

It's "normal", the chinese new year is next month, it's a very busy period for every chinese supplier.
Most of them have very few visibility over their production capacity, because some employees tend to go back home early without really telling the management in advance.
CNY this year is around february 10th, but you can usually consider that the month before and after that are "dead" periods.
I'd expect your controller to be produced in the beginning of March, then add however long it takes to ship to your country.

You seem like a rather fast builder so that might be an issue for you, I can't say. But the controller is usually one of the last piece of the puzzle, so maybe you can make all the other stuff, put a temporary low power el cheapo controller in the meantime to check everything's all right and then swap it later.

I'm not concerned at all about the quality of the Far Driver apps, we've already worked through all of that. Same goes for things like configurable throttle response. My throttle will go into the body control module I'm building, which will then control the motor drive. I can have any map I want.

Interesting.
I had throttle and app issues at first but a firmware upgrade on the controller solved it. Wasn't easy nor pleasant tho.
But changing the throttle response in the app is still a bit disappointing as it doesn't work great, so if you have some way to externally change the throttle behavior I'd be REALLY interested in knowing how, if you don't mind sharing it.

I'm looking hard at a Curtis drive, they've been around forever.

Never had the chance to try one, but heard mostly good things about them.

 

[quelsurprise]

I agree completely and for exactly those reasons. Right now I'm just trying to find someone with the 3Shul CL1400 and a QS180 that has actually got to the point of having ridden it. My concern is that Far driver are saying they have problems with the 1081800 drive and won't commit to a delivery date.
I'm not concerned at all about the quality of the Far Driver apps, we've already worked through all of that. Same goes for things like configurable throttle response. My throttle will go into the body control module I'm building, which will then control the motor drive. I can have any map I want.

I'm looking hard at a Curtis drive, they've been around forever.

Not the cl1400, but maybe of interest

Two Builds using a 3SHUL VESC Controller

One of the most often asked questions about any electric conversion is “what controller should I use?”. Controllers are the last remaining voodoo in electric systems, and they are not e…

www.electricbike.com

 

[PK2000]

But changing the throttle response in the app is still a bit disappointing as it doesn't work great, so if you have some way to externally change the throttle behavior I'd be REALLY interested in knowing how, if you don't mind sharing it.

The plan is for the throttle, in fact all of the sensors, to come into a body control module. Ie the throttle will not connect to the drive at all.
The body control module will process the signals and send them to the drive, lights, bms, etc.. We haven't yet found a way to command throttle over the serial link to the Far Driver controller, so it may need to be that the BCM generates an analog throttle command.

Point is, between the throttle signal coming in and going out, you can do anything with it. You can adjust it to maintain constant power, constant speed, compensate for battery or temperature conditions. It's just a map.

 

[PK2000]

Not the cl1400, but maybe of interest

Two Builds using a 3SHUL VESC Controller

One of the most often asked questions about any electric conversion is “what controller should I use?”. Controllers are the last remaining voodoo in electric systems, and they are not e…

www.electricbike.com

OK, thanks everyone for the tips, I just saw a post on the FB support group with someone unable to set phase amps above 1000 on a CL1400 because there's a coded limit in the app. It seems they've been waiting some time for resolution on this issue. What I see is that the 3Shul stuff looks promising, but isn't quite where I want my controller to be.. I guess I'll just defer this decision 'till the end of Feb. having ordered the 1081800 early December, if they can't give me a delivery date by then, then I'll get the curtis drive.

 

[PK2000]

Setting aside the frustrations of procurement, I finally got to cut some metal today!


These are the roughed (except for the gear ODs which are to final size) out blanks for the gears. The input shaft is a larger diameter because I'm going to cut an internal spline in it so the output shaft of the QS180 will slide inside. This will make mounting the motor to the gear reducer easier.

I've made them out of E110 with a view to case hardening them. Man that is a tough alloy. My little lathe worked hard to turn the big (112.5mm) blank!

I'm going to try to cut the teeth before I have to travel in a weeks time.

 

[j bjork]

OK, thanks everyone for the tips, I just saw a post on the FB support group with someone unable to set phase amps above 1000 on a CL1400 because there's a coded limit in the app. It seems they've been waiting some time for resolution on this issue. What I see is that the 3Shul stuff looks promising, but isn't quite where I want my controller to be.. I guess I'll just defer this decision 'till the end of Feb. having ordered the 1081800 early December, if they can't give me a delivery date by then, then I'll get the curtis drive.

It is not that I cant set the phase amps higher, I can on the phone. I got the unlocked app for android. But if I do any motor setting (or battery etc. that is under motor) with the computer I have to change back the phase amps with the phone.

 

[PK2000]

It is not that I cant set the phase amps higher, I can on the phone. I got the unlocked app for android. But if I do any motor setting (or battery etc. that is under motor) with the computer I have to change back the phase amps with the phone.

OK, I take your point, my apologies if I've quoted anyone out of context.

So here's my question. If I'm looking to do a build that's a few steps back from "It's going to be awesome, I'm just waiting on the next firmware update", and I want to be able to push 1200->1300 phase amps and 700 battery amps. Should I buy a CL1400, or either hold out for Far Driver to come through or buy the Curtis controller?

 

[j bjork]

Are you asking me? I have no experiance with curtis, but I posted a little of what I think of fardriver vs 3shul earlier in this thread (post50) There is quite a lot about sevcon, fardriver and 3shul in my yamaha yz250f thread. Iam running 1200pH, I can probably go a little higher with some tuning and maybe change the overcurrent cut to slow.. 1400pA is the limit, so you will have to have some headroom to that.

 

[rfndzc]

OK, I take your point, my apologies if I've quoted anyone out of context.

So here's my question. If I'm looking to do a build that's a few steps back from "It's going to be awesome, I'm just waiting on the next firmware update", and I want to be able to push 1200->1300 phase amps and 700 battery amps. Should I buy a CL1400, or either hold out for Far Driver to come through or buy the Curtis controller?

700A… that’s impressive. What have you thought tο do for the BMS?

 

[j bjork]

One more thing when thinking about the "next firmware update" I would think 3shul (vesc) is the one with most possibilities there.
You probably have a better idea about all that than me, but the open sorce thing must be a big advantage when you know programming? I mean you can make your own things or get a bunch of compatible stuff that can communicate over can bus.

There are also updates coming, I suppose with fardriver or curtis it is more like what you get is what you have.
A problem though is 3shul still hasnt made the necessery files avalible to be able to update the fw I think, but they are obligated to do so as I understand it.

 

[PK2000]

700A… that’s impressive. What have you thought tο do for the BMS?

Right now I have a 30S ANT BMS. I'm going to use it for balancing the charged pack, I won't be running the discharge current through it.
For safety I have a 1200A fuse, I'll monitor the battery current via the drive and open the contactor if it gets too high, and I also have some hall based current sensors. I'm toying with the idea of building an electronic fuse.

At 22P the pack will have a rated capacity of 990A. Now it'll cook fairly quickly at those currents, but 45A per cell is on the chart for those Molicells. As such it seems reasonable to assume that they will handle 700A/22=32A as a peak current.

 

[harrisonpatm]

Right now I have a 30S ANT BMS. I'm going to use it for balancing the charged pack, I won't be running the discharge current through it.
For safety I have a 1200A fuse, I'll monitor the battery current via the drive and open the contactor if it gets too high, and I also have some hall based current sensors. I'm toying with the idea of building an electronic fuse.

At 22P the pack will have a rated capacity of 990A. Now it'll cook fairly quickly at those currents, but 45A per cell is on the chart for those Molicells. As such it seems reasonable to assume that they will handle 700A/22=32A as a peak current.

May I ask what contactor you're using for 1200 battery amps?