Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

[fechter]

The terminal posts are not so easy to solder back. It takes a lot of heat. More heat than my biggest two soldering irons at the same time. The only way I know of to remove the potting is to heat it to around 80-100C where it becomes rubbery, then dig it out with a small screwdriver. It is easy to damage components under the potting.

 

[stepus]

I will borrow solder station from work, its high power JBC - so i thing this will be easy job. Yes i know i can heat up, but iam a little worry about electrolytic caps, they are rated for 105C max... so i dont want to damage them and also mechanicaly damage other components as i will removing potting by screw driver So its there another way ?

 

[KeithT]

Can't you connect the battery to the red wire next to the missing terminal? I see continuity to there on my dead controller, seems like a possibility.

 

[stepus]

yes, continuity is there, but i dont know if there isnt a shunt for sensing battery current - its small resistance that multimeter shows continuity, but if i connect it direct to red wire i will bypass this sensing resistor and controller will burn and also i want to peel of all potting and try modify shunt for battery, and modify hall sensors to increase phase current and after it will burn i will do my own powerstage with VESC brain, or buy some ASI/NUCULAR etc....

 

[3DTOPO]

I was going up a super steep slope and next thing I knew my my chain slid off.

Turns out the nut on the real wheel axle somehow came off. I can find the aluminum spacer for sale, but not the nut.

Anyone know where to get a replacement in the US, or what the specs for the rear axle nut are?

 

[Paulflieg]

I was going up a super steep slope and next thing I knew my my chain slid off.

Turns out the nut on the real wheel axle somehow came off. I can find the aluminum spacer for sale, but not the nut.

Anyone know where to get a replacement in the US, or what the specs for the rear axle nut are?

M12 X 1.25

 

[3DTOPO]

I was going up a super steep slope and next thing I knew my my chain slid off.

Turns out the nut on the real wheel axle somehow came off. I can find the aluminum spacer for sale, but not the nut.

Anyone know where to get a replacement in the US, or what the specs for the rear axle nut are?

M12 X 1.25

Awesome, thank you!

Reverse thread?

 

[fechter]

Right hand thread. You can find lug nuts for car wheels in that size.

 

[3DTOPO]

Awesome and thanks for the tip! :thumb:

 

[stepus]

Hi, so i finaly clean off potting. It took me about 5 hours, I have cooked it in owen for 100C, and then heat with hot air gun and repeated this about 3times. And with some wood stick peel of potting. I have damaged some caps and some resistor - nothing big... Only connector connecting power stage and control board is damaged - i will replace it. So boards i hope will work.
Control board :
CPU : Nuvoton NM1530VE3AE (ARM Cortex-M0, 50 MHz, 128 kB ROM, 16 kB RAM)
Halls are THT with iron core? Allegro A1308 (UA pinout)
Hall amplifier MCP6021 - hope i can only change feedback for moooore amps.
Power board: nothing suprising here
Fets:IPB042N10N3 (100V,4.2mOhm,137A) - 4 paralel, PCB is for 6 paralel so i will buy some and add them for more amps, but they are currently soldout everywhere :/
Gate drivers are :IR2127S - output boosted with transistors
there are RC snubbers network everywhere on gate signals, between VBAT and phase, phase and gnd. Gate resistors are 20R.
I did not find any battery shunt... I can closely look on traces if they are measuring voltage drop on PCB but i thing they calculating it from two phase current sensors - that is what i expect because when i start measuring batt amps it was 60A and after some riding it rises to 62A - halls is drifting, so battery current will also drift.
Filtering electrolytes from control board are connected through spacers to power stage.

 

[Elektrosherpa]

WOW... I never thought it would be possible to peel off that stuff... :thumb:
(well-it wouldnt help me at all, but interesting to see )

 

[fechter]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

Looks like they got cheap and didn't populate all the power stage FETs.
I've never been able to find a datasheet for those FETs either. No idea what their ratings are.

Your mezzanine connectors look not so good now. Those will need to be replaced.

 

[noneedlessnoise]

Has anyone adapted a Kelly or Sabvoton controller to the Sur Ron?

 

[mxlemming]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

Looks like they got cheap and didn't populate all the power stage FETs.
I've never been able to find a datasheet for those FETs either. No idea what their ratings are.

Your mezzanine connectors look not so good now. Those will need to be replaced.

Infineon ipb042n10
4.2mohm, 6300nF Cinput 100V

 

[pr0ton]

See the video below (sound on) for the slow throttle response of our ASI BAC4000 controller. Do you BAC4000/8000 folks know if it's the controller's behavior or that it can be configured to respond better?

Also I'm looking for a tuned ASI parameter list for the Surron motor. We have access using the BacDoor mobile app (bluetooth). Maybe someone is willing to provide one? The BAC4000 is running on v6.015 firmware, using a 60V battery. A parameter list for 72V would be fine too. Thanks a lot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN6_h_5qU80

 

[liveforphysics]

Looks like nice hotrodding potential. FET swap for some ~2mOhm parts, and populate fully to 6 per parallel group, and in an identical size and weight package you're running more than 2x continuous power (assuming PCB traces and caps handle it) for the same heat load, with a burst current potential increase around ~3x (for same Si dice heating rate during burst).

Respect to your determination to dig all the potting out, I dug at it for 10 minutes and decided I didn't want it badly enough, but I'm grateful for your hard work.

As this topology is only a trace footprint reconfigure away from running any of the sits on top PCB packages, it would be exciting to see them reconfigure for these little guys.
Ti MOSFET CSD19536KTT

Space available to package a few more of them on the board, get 8 per parallel group of that Ti FET, beef up critical traces with some added copper bus bars (and replace brass current carrier studs with copper), and the controller would be ready for >35-40hp bursts (not saying the battery and motor are ready for that).

 

[pr0ton]

Hi, so i finaly clean off potting. It took me about 5 hours, I have cooked it in owen for 100C, and then heat with hot air gun and repeated this about 3times. And with some wood stick peel of potting. I have damaged some caps and some resistor - nothing big... Only connector connecting power stage and control board is damaged - i will replace it. So boards i hope will work.

Very useful tear down, great work! Looking forward to your results after modding it.

I wonder if it would be possible to read/dump the firmware, the Nuvoton MCUs are documented well. They may have enabled a security lock, otherwise reading the firmware should be possible. After that you could even mod a lot further :wink:

 

[stepus]

Hi, i have repaired everything i broke when i deppoted it, and i tested it and it still rides ! i thing i have a more lucky then sense :lol: i have ordered same fets and they will arrive at next week...
I was already thinking about dumping FW - but I don't think it will go easily to modify hex file...
unfortunately you are right, this controller will be a hotrodder i cannot change ratio of battery amps / phase amps.
I can shunt only phase amps. Now controller drawing aprox 62Amps battery and 350A phase amps. So if i wanted to 10kW of power its aprox 160Amps battery, and with unchanged ratio battery/phase amps i will get 900 phase amps - quite huge current - probbably i will not go that high...

 

[pr0ton]

I was already thinking about dumping FW - but I don't think it will go easily to modify hex file...

If you succeed dumping please share

 

[stepus]

no, i didnt tried yet. I was looking for programmer and it needs something called NuLink i have only ST-link,USB asp etc... I'll try to find someone I can borrow it from. I don't want to buy a programmer so that I can find out that it can't be dumped I have no experience editing hex, so someone from the community from here could look.

 

[fechter]

So if i wanted to 10kW of power its aprox 160Amps battery, and with unchanged ratio battery/phase amps i will get 900 phase amps - quite huge current - probbably i will not go that high...

It works fine at 180 battery amps. You won't actually get 900 phase amps.

 

[Doctorbass]

As this topology is only a trace footprint reconfigure away from running any of the sits on top PCB packages, it would be exciting to see them reconfigure for these little guys.
Ti MOSFET CSD19536KTT

Space available to package a few more of them on the board, get 8 per parallel group of that Ti FET, beef up critical traces with some added copper bus bars (and replace brass current carrier studs with copper), and the controller would be ready for >35-40hp bursts (not saying the battery and motor are ready for that).

I got one of these controller sur ron X, apparently deffective, maybe a mosfet set blown. I am interested to try that upgrade Luke.. It seem a stock 24 fet made for 36fet too.

Probably the cheapest way for them was the 4 parallel fet per side per phase with the price of 24fet lower rds on being cheaper than 36 fets with higher rds on...

the CSD19536KTT seem as expensive as the IRF4110 were back in 2008, at 5.20usd each..

Doc

 

[liveforphysics]

$/Amp price on them is much better than the old 4110's though.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

maybe there's a temp you could heat the esc in an oven and not damage the bits on the pcb so the potting material would get soft and be more easily removed. or maybe thats how you did it

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey guys I have to say it take ton of patience to just remove the plastic cover! I pried 2 screwdriver and i tought multiple times i had forgot some screw hidden somewhere but not!! the plastic cover is glued also to the internal poting. This make all surrounding edge very strong to unstick from the aluminum plate. Stepus and other that dissassembled it you deserve respect!! :thumb:

I myself dissassemble ton of stuff including the famous DYSON battery where the cells have glue between the cell holder and cells inside the tube!... but that damn controller was way harder than a Sevcon size 6!!

Even by taking maximum care i also ended out damaging one of the rail capacitor.

The Sur Ron X controller i got have a phase B shorted to NEG and POS. It is as clear as earth is not flat that this controller has been made to Not be servisable!!!

But seriously removing all the puty dremel, oven, all kind of mecanical or thermodynamic method is not so easy! I realy have to find that famous magic sauce to dissolve putty.. but i hate toxic stiff like that!