Why a 5000 Mile EV spells trouble

[Mr. Mik]

Maybe each 30 AH Vectrix cell is really three 10 AH cells in parallel? It's one possibility I can think of, assuming the 10 AH limit is truly correct. True, the diagram shows individual 30 AH cells, but it might be more of a conceptual block diagram as opposed to a schematic. Can you find a close-up photo of one of the cells? There appears to be 3 connections on top of each one that might correspond to 3 "D" cells inside each square cell package, but it would seem wasteful to package 3 "D" cells in an enclosure instead of just strapping them together and soldering a buss bar across them. Maybe they tweaked the chemistry just enough to avoid the patent? I'm very curious now.

Do you know much does that pack costs?

I have tested and reconditioned each cell in that pack; I made the diagram myself and it is correct. Each of the 102 cells has a voltage of 1.25V and the good ones have about 27Ah capacity (at 20A to 1.1V cutoff).
Deteails there: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6277

The "third" connection in the middle of each cell is actually a valve to relieve extreme pressure if needed.

I do not know how much they cost - but have heard numbers from US$5000 to over US$7000.-
No-one has bought one separately so far AFAIK, but many have been replaced under warranty.

There might be a large number of Vectrix batteries still standing around and waiting for a sales boom....Vectrix Corp. had some dramas with additional Tax fines because of large numbers of unsold NiMH battery packs, and I think they also had to re-negotiate about the large number of packs they had agreed to buy from GP later on (those have probably not been built). Search for Vectrix shareholder reports from 2007 and 2008 for details.

 

[Link]

What's with people and engines? Ozone > exhaust.

The nanotubes were an example. My guess is they end up being the most expensive type of battery per Wh yet. At least until the Chinese version comes out.

 

[lawsonuw]

On a related note, What's the longest range someone has gotten from a battery electric vehicle on a single charge? Rechargeable batteries only and extra points for average speeds over 65mph (~104kph). I've been searching a bit and it's remarkably hard to find an answer. The Guinness book of world records was NO help, Google wasn't much better.

Thanks for the help,
Lawson

 

[John in CR]

On a related note, What's the longest range someone has gotten from a battery electric vehicle on a single charge? Rechargeable batteries only and extra points for average speeds over 65mph (~104kph). I've been searching a bit and it's remarkably hard to find an answer. The Guinness book of world records was NO help, Google wasn't much better.

Thanks for the help,
Lawson

 

[Puppyjump]

"I have tested and reconditioned each cell in that pack; I made the diagram myself and it is correct. Each of the 102 cells has a voltage of 1.25V and the good ones have about 27Ah capacity (at 20A to 1.1V cutoff).
Deteails there: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6277"

Yes, those look like individual 30 AH cells and the center cell feature does appear to be a pressure valve, just like the larger 95 AH batteries. Also notice the sturdy strap that holds each group of 8 cells together and the two end-plates.

http://www.evprogress.org/rav_battery_ev95.jpg

I read on the 95 AH battery this strap was to keep the Large Format cells from swelling during charge.

Maybe you should post these pics on the "Battery Technology"section and see what people know.

More Ideas?

1) The cells were manufactured before 2003 when Chevron got the patent.
2) I see Hong Kong labels. The cells may be contraband illegally made in China, but I would think they would be seized by customs.
3) They actually got permission to use these, an EV scooter not considered a threat the way an EV car would be.

If you find the answer, post it back here.

 

[Puppyjump]

"what is it that u don't like about alberta? "

Yes, I know most US imported oil its oil from Canada, but some does come from hostile countries, too.

Suppose we cut our use of oil to the point where we did not need to import any. That still leaves the Texas Fat Cats selling us our gas from domestic oil, and they will continue to buy up any promising EV tech when they can, but at least the Alberta oil would go elsewhere on the world market. It would give other Civilized nations the opportunity to not give money to the Saudis for their oil until they stop flogging 75 year old women for having a dude drop off a loaf of bread to her.

In any event, oil should be conserved for where it's needed like jet liners, our military, police and ambulance vehicles, trucking, sales people who drive all day, etc.

Many citizens could get by with an EV if they were realistically available. I get by on a ZAP EV for most of my driving, but I can only do this because I don't drive more than 20 miles per day and don't need to use the freeways. This is not an option for many others, or they need a larger safer vehicle for a family, etc.

 

[Puppyjump]

"what is it that u don't like about alberta? "

The Powers-that-be in Canada are shown on this youtube video as apparently blocking the release of the ZENN EV.

Just listen to that scummy government official try to explain why the ZENN is no good. He probably sells used cars as his second job.

Given Canada has the Oil, perhaps it's it's true that they will block EVs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb9ypkc9Uvs

 

[Toshi]

"what is it that u don't like about alberta? "

The Powers-that-be in Canada are shown on this youtube video as apparently blocking the release of the ZENN EV.

Just listen to that scummy government official try to explain why the ZENN is no good. He probably sells used cars as his second job.

Given Canada has the Oil, perhaps it's it's true that they will block EVs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb9ypkc9Uvs

canada is clarifying its LSV (NEV in US parlance) rules. what's so hard to understand?

having access to the huge canadian market is not what's hindering Zenn. what is holding them up is that the low speed electric vehicle is an answer to a question that no one asked.

who wants to spend $15-20k on a 25 mph electric car? not me, and not anyone that i know.

 

[Puppyjump]

"$15-20k on a 25 mph electric car? not me, and not anyone that i know."

Well, I don't want one either. Too slow, especially for the money (when a 40 MPH ZAP costs less). But Transport Canada could legislate them restricted to low speed streets like we do, but seem unwilling even to do that. There would be buyers. I see a lot of them in the Bay Area, mostly in dense cities with streets posted at 25 MPH, and most traffic unable to even go that fast due to congestion.

The Transport Canada guy on the youtube video sounded somewhat shady to me. Not to you?

We'll see for sure, I guess, when (if) buyer friendly highway speed EVs come out like the Aptera or Miles EV. Will they be allowed in by Transport Canada? I think Teslas are, but very few buyers can afford those, so they are not much of a threat to displace Oil as opposed to throngs of commuters driving past all the gas stations in mainstream EVs, setting an example for even more to follow (particularly when gas cost goes up again- and it will).

It's a wonderful feeling, it is, to never stop at the gas station. I drive past them in my 40 MPH ZAP (I stay on streets posted 40 MPH max). It's a rare thing for me to have to use my 2nd gas car, although I know I am lucky, compared to many others, in that my driving needs involve short distances (20 miles per day max) and mostly on surface streets, suitable to the limitations of my ZAP PK Trucklet. I use my 2nd car, a Ford Focus, for longer distances or for freeway driving. When the rare event does arrive that I need to take my gas car in for a fill-up (or if I'm in a friend's car as it's gassed up), I get this feeling "What a complete waste of time this is".

 

[Toshi]

you have a 40 mph Zap? do tell more. from all i've read they're 25 mph cars on a slight downslope in stock form, and would be lucky to go 25 miles on a full charge. :lol:

 

[Puppyjump]

"from all i've read they're 25 mph cars on a slight downslope in stock form"

Oilies hate ZAPs and I suspect they spit venom everywhere, and they have various website spit some, too. Don't believe it.

ZAPs really do go 40 on a level road (maybe they are better now than a few years ago?), but they take a while to get there once you pass 30. Up to 30, though, they do match most city traffic in acceleration in stock form (lead foot acceleration excepted). They perform a little better in warmer weather when the Lead acids perform best. I never drive it more than 20 miles, so the limited range is fine for me because as I mentioned, I use my gas car when I need to go further.

If you can stand their goofy body styling, they are a bargain. You can't yet buy an affordable EV beyond an NEV (faster than 25) except for the ZAP (heck, the ZAPs are cheaper than many NEVs). I really love my little ZAP. The 3 wheel geometry looks very unstable, but that's not been my experience, perhaps due to the massive weight of the lead acid pack mounted near the rear axle? Driven reasonably, it does not feel tippy. It came with leather seating and a CD/MP3 FM stereo.

People fit a 7th battery to increase the 72V motive pack up to 84V and these hit 45 and with fairly decent acceleration that matches most city traffic all the way up to 40.

I opted for the pricey large 180 watt solar panel mounted over the bed on my 2008 model. It provides a few miles of free driving on sunlight alone, and also presumably helps slow down the lead acid battery pack degradation from Sulfication by means of the constant trickle charge. But I mostly like it for its nerdy appeal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g1Mss6hSFI&eurl=http://www.xebraworld.com/&feature=player_embedded

http://www.zapworld.com/electric-vehicles/electric-cars/xebra-solar-panel

 

[morph999]

Mechanics out of business? yep, because you could pretty much replace anything on your car and if you couldn't, your neighbor down the street probably could. There would be an e-mechanic on every street because with electrical vehicles, there's not many components to be replaced.

 

[Puppyjump]

"and would be lucky to go 25 miles on a full charge. :lol:"

Yes, you are right on this count. The range is very limited on ZAPs. This is a limiting factor for some people, but I'd wager not the majority of people. Most people don't drive more than 25 miles in a day.

1) Many employers will provide a charging plug. You can charge the ZAP all day at work. I'm lucky enough to work for a company that gives me my own spot with a plug. This effectively doubles the range.

2) If you live very close to work, say within 5 miles, then you do not need the plug anyway. In fact, in this situation you are much better off with the ZAP because gas engines do not like being run for short distances where they can not fully warm up.

3) The ZAP truck offers an exciting opportunity: For trips you know will exceed the battery charge, then you can load a small 2 KW gas generator in the bed and plug it into the charging plug on the ZAP. Make a series hybrid (the real kind). The range would be increased dramatically. The ZAPs on-board battery pack charger delivers 1400 watts continuously. Since the ZAP uses little electricity, this 1400 watts will extend the range a lot. In fact, since the ZAP is limited to city streets, you spend a fair amount of time stopped "idling" at traffic lights. All 1400 watts cumulatively get saved in the pack for the subsequent driving when the light turns green.

If the generator is a Honda, you'd barely even be able to hear it run.

 

[knightmb]

you have a 40 mph Zap? do tell more. from all i've read they're 25 mph cars on a slight downslope in stock form, and would be lucky to go 25 miles on a full charge. :lol:

Not from what I've read from owners. They are basically 5 KW motorcycles (legally) that happens to have 4 seats (unless you get the truck), come with a heater, stereo, etc. For the price to performance value, it's better than nearly all the NEV I've seen and faster to boot. If you live in a hilly region, they even offer more powerful controllers so you can maintain speed up hills. It of course shortens your charge distance, but there is a whole other culture out there that revolves around the Zap.

If I had the spare $$$ for another vehicle, I would purchase one for exactly what it does. Where I live, everything around here is 40 MPH or less with one highway that tops out at 55. I already read many topics among the Zap members about getting the 200 amp power controller and as was mentioned, stick another battery in to increase the top speed. One can also put larger diameter wheels on them to get the top speed closer to 50 on level ground and much faster going with a tail wind, downhill, etc.

So for 5 KW of power, they actually move along quite fast. Zap even has an optional fast charger for the home where you can hook into your 220 bus and decrease the recharge times drastically. The car basically has (6) 200AH - 12 volt SLA batteries under the floor with a 100 amp power controller connected to a 5KW DC brushless motor underneath. The controller does regen, the back already has a DC to DC converter for 12 volts to power the lights, stereo, etc. You can get them with an optional heater for winter time, but last I checked had no AC. That may have changed since I last looked at them, since AC doesn't take near as much power as heat does.

 

[dogman dan]

Wtih three wheels it's a motorcycle. As soon as you have 4 wheels you are screwed legaly for an ev. We need a new class of vehicle that goes 45 mph, with good safety, but not built to crash on the freeway. Have people sign off to register them, and let insurance companies decide how to set rates for insuring them. The volt, tesla, etc are fine efforts, but real economy is lighter and slower.

 

[knightmb]

Wtih three wheels it's a motorcycle. As soon as you have 4 wheels you are screwed legaly for an ev. We need a new class of vehicle that goes 45 mph, with good safety, but not built to crash on the freeway. Have people sign off to register them, and let insurance companies decide how to set rates for insuring them. The volt, tesla, etc are fine efforts, but real economy is lighter and slower.

Yeah, that's exactly how they get around it. I have seen the crash test for them though, they do about average for safety, though if you get run over by a larger vehicle, your in trouble.

Once you add that 4th wheel then all of sudden, you hit a million more regulations. As long as more than one company out there is trying, I'll be happy. Hate to have everything depend on the success or failure of a single EV company.

 

[Puppyjump]

"The car basically has (6) 200AH - 12 volt SLA batteries under the floor with a 100 amp power controller connected to a 5KW DC brushless motor underneath. The controller does regen, the back already has a DC to DC converter for 12 volts to power the lights, stereo, etc. You can get them with an optional heater for winter time, but last I checked had no AC. That may have changed since I last looked at them, since AC doesn't take near as much power as heat does."

There are inaccuracies here. I own a ZAP and love it, correct stats are:

-Six 114 AH batteries standard, 144AH extended range option batteries
-Motor is a DC brushed type, 5KW
-ZAP does not have regen
-Heater is standard, 500 Watts

 

[knightmb]

"The car basically has (6) 200AH - 12 volt SLA batteries under the floor with a 100 amp power controller connected to a 5KW DC brushless motor underneath. The controller does regen, the back already has a DC to DC converter for 12 volts to power the lights, stereo, etc. You can get them with an optional heater for winter time, but last I checked had no AC. That may have changed since I last looked at them, since AC doesn't take near as much power as heat does."

There are inaccuracies here. I own a ZAP and love it, correct stats are:

-Six 114 AH batteries standard, 144AH extended range option batteries
-Motor is a DC brushed type, 5KW
-ZAP does not have regen
-Heater is standard, 500 Watts

What year model? The last one I looked at was the 2006 year model.

I thought the motor was brushless, guess the saleman didn't now what we has talking about, LOL. I one I looked at was at a regular car lot, so those sales guys probably weren't very technical. Too bad they got so many of the details wrong then.

I thought those batteries seemed small for 200AH, LOL because I have a 100AH here with me and it is only slightly smaller than what I looked at in the Zap.

That's actually nice to know what the heater wattage was, they didn't know at the time.

Is the controller really 100 amps then?

 

[Puppyjump]

I thought the motor was brushless, guess the saleman didn't now what we has talking about, LOL. I one I looked at was at a regular car lot, so those sales guys probably weren't very technical. Too bad they got so many of the details wrong then.

I thought those batteries seemed small for 200AH, LOL because I have a 100AH here with me and it is only slightly smaller than what I looked at in the Zap.

That's actually nice to know what the heater wattage was, they didn't know at the time.

Is the controller really 100 amps then?

I have the 2008 PK trucklet. The controller I think draws about 200 amps. Yes many dealers are not technical. The ZAP has an ordinary, but quite robust, DC Brushed motor. Heater 500W is not quite enough to warm up the car on a really cold morning. I use a hair dryer in mine. I start it running, then take my morning shower, then head off to work in a very toasty warm car.

 

[knightmb]

I thought the motor was brushless, guess the saleman didn't now what we has talking about, LOL. I one I looked at was at a regular car lot, so those sales guys probably weren't very technical. Too bad they got so many of the details wrong then.

I thought those batteries seemed small for 200AH, LOL because I have a 100AH here with me and it is only slightly smaller than what I looked at in the Zap.

That's actually nice to know what the heater wattage was, they didn't know at the time.

Is the controller really 100 amps then?

I have the 2008 PK trucklet. The controller I think draws about 200 amps. Yes many dealers are not technical. The ZAP has an ordinary, but quite robust, DC Brushed motor. Heater 500W is not quite enough to warm up the car on a really cold morning. I use a hair dryer in mine. I start it running, then take my morning shower, then head off to work in a very toasty warm car.

Cool, it's great to talk with someone that can give first hand real technical info about the vehicle. Most of what I read in other forums are just non-technical people that own them and use them. They still get good praise though from the non-technical people. You just can't ask them questions like how much power does the motor take or what kind of AH batteries are in it, hehe.

When I last looked at one, I think they use electric fan air cooling for the motor in the back? Too bad that heat can't be used in the winter time.

I'm partial to the 4 door car because everything near me is well within range and max speed. Taking kids to school, buying groceries, errands, etc. Even a lot of customers I work with are no more than 5 or 10 miles away most of the time.

 

[Puppyjump]

When I last looked at one, I think they use electric fan air cooling for the motor in the back? Too bad that heat can't be used in the winter time.

I'm partial to the 4 door car because everything near me is well within range and max speed. Taking kids to school, buying groceries, errands, etc. Even a lot of customers I work with are no more than 5 or 10 miles away most of the time.

The DC Drive motor does have a fan for cooling. This is a good feature. I've heard about ZENNs overheating when they are unlocked in software so they can hit 35 MPH vs 25.

No, I don't think the warmed air can be used for a winter cab heater because it might have Ozone in it given it blows thru the operating brushes and high voltages.

The 4 door sedan is very nice and roomier inside than the truck. It's also cheaper to buy. A few things though:

The sedan has less room for batteries, so I heard you can't run the larger "Extended Range" 144 AH ones the truck can use.
The truck has easier access to the drive stuff by just lifting the bed.
The truck may be easier to modify with a 7th battery to add a good performance boost.
The truck is more quiet in the cabin due to the motor and its geardrive being located under the bed whereas in the sedan it's pretty much inside the car under a panel that lets more whine in.

Still, for your short range needs, you won't go wrong with buying the sedan, but I'd make sure it's one of the newer 2008 models that are metal bodied and with a nice hatchback.

 

[madmadscientist]

Hi PuppyJump,
I've just read thru this entire thread and I have two questions for you.

1. Do you work for Zap in any way shape or form? Your posts smack a little bit too much of lame viral marketing to me.
2. Where do you get this $30,000 figure for the cost of the tesla batt? Ref please. I have not heard that it is anywhere near that expensive.

thanks,

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA

 

[Toshi]

Hi PuppyJump,
I've just read thru this entire thread and I have two questions for you.

1. Do you work for Zap in any way shape or form? Your posts smack a little bit too much of lame viral marketing to me.

good point. he does seem to have a single-minded focus throughout the world on promoting Zap, contrary to all other evidence:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=puppyjump+zap&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

[madmadscientist]

Didn't the famous Wired Zap article talk about how Zap was paying a small army of bloggers to talk up their products and conversely their stock?

 

[knightmb]

Didn't the famous Wired Zap article talk about how Zap was paying a small army of bloggers to talk up their products and conversely their stock?

Maybe? If you click on his username, most of his post have been about e-bikes though, :?