VFR400 20kw Build

[kagemushablues]

Hi everyone,
I'm new here! Making a build and wish to get some feedback from you witches and wizards.
(Currently I'm riding a Yamaha Cygnus (96v60Ah, 4kw qs motor, and fardriver 96400). Not a total noob but still lots to learn.)

Build is a Honda VFR400 NC21, good'ol delta box frame.

Specs:
Motor - 10kw Golden Motor (but looking at 15kw and 20kw options, more on this below). (17kg to 40kg)
Controller - APT 961000 - 600A/1000A (10kg)
Battery - WeLion semi-solid state 111ah x 28 x 2 - 96v 222ah 3C. (68kg)
BMS - 2x BMS to hit that sweet 96v x 600A output, as well as fast charging.

Questions:

1. Swingarm mounted motor. It's been done and was wondering what everyone's experience is?
   It'll be a custom swingarm and added a mount
   
   
2. If motor is mounted to chassis, I'm able to use the higher powered ones with water cooling. Please see v2 pic below... Would the center of gravity be too high in this position?
   This would also be a dual-shock setup. Not sure if the rear subframe can take the forces?
   
   
3. Most importantly... Can the APT 961000 even drive the 15kw / 20kw motors capably?
   Talking to Golden Motor, I've learned that:
   - 10kw motor can hit 18kw peak, but in a split second burst can hit 22kw.
   - 15kw motor can hit 22kw peak, burst 30kw, and can take up to 50kw.
   - 20kw motor can hit 28kw peak, burst can take 50kw, not sure how much it can take.
   (the 20kw is better for a car conversion to be honest. Too big and wayy too much power).
   
   
4. Target power - Horsepower vs watts.
   I ride two-up most of the time and need it for commute + touring.
   Desired top speed: 88mph is good enough!
   Most likely 20kw motor is too high spec for me... Aiming for something between a Honda Rebel 300 but closer to 500.
   I.e. 33 horsepower would be ideal. Likely 10kw/15kw motor is best but wish to confirm design is good before committing to water cooling.

So far I've owned the APT 961000 controller for many years but haven't used it. Need to put it on something. Luckily the Golden Motors don't require encoder controller so we're in business.

Any experience with Golden Motors - I'd LOVE to hear your experience with them!! Thank you!!!!





ALSO --- Has anyone ever used a swingarm pivot as a jackshaft? I've seen it on trikes/go-karts, but not on motorcycles. Thanks!

 

[marcexec]

I have the old Motenergy hub motor and performance is plenty for a commuter.
Go for OEM EV battery modules if you can, it will save some time vs. packaging the raw cells.

 

[Pilip]

One of the best frames for integration into electric.
I put 10 kWh of LG batteries in it.
The maximum distance that I have repeatedly traveled without charging the batteries is 260 km, but there was still enough capacity for another 30-50 km of travel.

 

[kagemushablues]

I have the old Motenergy hub motor and performance is plenty for a commuter.
Go for OEM EV battery modules if you can, it will save some time vs. packaging the raw cells.

ooooh congrats first comment!!

re: The battery pack --- In order for it to fit all 96v 222ah (28s x 2p) within the space, I'm making a custom fiberglass enclosure to squeeze it within the 24cm chassis center. Would love to just buy a ready-made pack --- in China where I'm currently working, battery dealers offer insurance in case of fire.

Motenergy is OG! There are so many compeitors in the space now. Yuma, QS, Sotion (FastWay), Golden... All the Suron customs are supplied by one of these major factories and charging a premium. I know the Motenergy factory based in Changzhou... they are excellent as well.

The trend in China currently is putting Wuling Mini car motors into Zeeho and Ninebot scooters. The regulations have changed lately and higher powered scooters are requiring a motorcycle license. This has led to most people buying a low powered one (ebike license) and upgrading with parts.

Anyway thank so much for your feedback!!

 

[kagemushablues]

One of the best frames for integration into electric.
I put 10 kWh of LG batteries in it.
The maximum distance that I have repeatedly traveled without charging the batteries is 260 km, but there was still enough capacity for another 30-50 km of travel.

That's one handsome build there. What a beautiful front end! I was indeed stressing about suspension travel hitting my controller so decided to put it in the tank, but yours in the front is definitely superior for cooling.

Totally agree about the frame. There is a part of me that believes all backyard VFRs and SV650 will be electro-conversions someday.

260km is super respectable! I love that your footrest also doubles as a crashbar in case of laying it down. Taking notes cheers.

 

[BiggKidd]

Hi everyone,
I'm new here! Making a build and wish to get some feedback from you witches and wizards.
(Currently I'm riding a Yamaha Cygnus (96v60Ah, 4kw qs motor, and fardriver 96400). Not a total noob but still lots to learn.)

Build is a Honda VFR400 NC21, good'ol delta box frame.

Specs:
Motor - 10kw Golden Motor (but looking at 15kw and 20kw options, more on this below). (17kg to 40kg)
Controller - APT 961000 - 600A/1000A (10kg)
Battery - WeLion semi-solid state 111ah x 28 x 2 - 96v 222ah 3C. (68kg)
BMS - 2x BMS to hit that sweet 96v x 600A output, as well as fast charging.

Questions:

1. Swingarm mounted motor. It's been done and was wondering what everyone's experience is?
   It'll be a custom swingarm and added a mount
   
   
2. If motor is mounted to chassis, I'm able to use the higher powered ones with water cooling. Please see v2 pic below... Would the center of gravity be too high in this position?
   This would also be a dual-shock setup. Not sure if the rear subframe can take the forces?
   
   
3. Most importantly... Can the APT 961000 even drive the 15kw / 20kw motors capably?
   Talking to Golden Motor, I've learned that:
   - 10kw motor can hit 18kw peak, but in a split second burst can hit 22kw.
   - 15kw motor can hit 22kw peak, burst 30kw, and can take up to 50kw.
   - 20kw motor can hit 28kw peak, burst can take 50kw, not sure how much it can take.
   (the 20kw is better for a car conversion to be honest. Too big and wayy too much power).
   
   
4. Target power - Horsepower vs watts.
   I ride two-up most of the time and need it for commute + touring.
   Desired top speed: 88mph is good enough!
   Most likely 20kw motor is too high spec for me... Aiming for something between a Honda Rebel 300 but closer to 500.
   I.e. 33 horsepower would be ideal. Likely 10kw/15kw motor is best but wish to confirm design is good before committing to water cooling.

So far I've owned the APT 961000 controller for many years but haven't used it. Need to put it on something. Luckily the Golden Motors don't require encoder controller so we're in business.

Any experience with Golden Motors - I'd LOVE to hear your experience with them!! Thank you!!!!

View attachment 369825

View attachment 369826

I recently ordered a Torqstar 3 for an E-bike build 24kw but crazy high RPM so serious gearing needed. You might want to check them out. There's an add on this site for some used ones out of Greece.

 

[kagemushablues]

I recently ordered a Torqstar 3 for an E-bike build 24kw but crazy high RPM so serious gearing needed. You might want to check them out. There's an add on this site for some used ones out of Greece.

Thanks so much I'll look into it. I'm building an enthusiast website (electricmoto.com my domain) and need all the knowledge possible. Cheers!

 

[BiggKidd]

Gotcha I want my build to be a bicycle with motorcycle power and stability. .

 

[kagemushablues]

[Added to original post]

Has anyone ever use the swingarm pivot axel as a jackshaft to transmit drive power?

Wondering if this can be done, or if I should stick with the swingarm-mounted motor design. Thanks!!

 

[kagemushablues]

Gotcha I want my build to be a bicycle with motorcycle power and stability. .

Do you have a build thread on here? I'd love to follow you back. Cheers.

 

[BiggKidd]

Do you have a build thread on here? I'd love to follow you back. Cheers.

Slo Ride is the thread name. I have just started acquiring parts and have not started the build yet. I still need to figure out a lot of things and gather the parts. My starting point was ordering a 24kw 4.2lb motor.

 

[BiggKidd]

[Added to original post]

Has anyone ever use the swingarm pivot axel as a jackshaft to transmit drive power?

Wondering if this can be done, or if I should stick with the swingarm-mounted motor design. Thanks!!

View attachment 369834

I'm considering a CVT with the output pivot point here at the swing arm mount point. That should keep the geometry in line.

 

[kagemushablues]

Hahaha yeah when the motor is on the swingarm, my mind also immediately goes to maxi scooter CVTs and how they behave.

For the swingarm-mounted motor, I think having a 1:3 fixed single speed ratio should be good enough - the acceleration curve can be tuned on the motor/throttle.

With 18kw the high motor torque is more than enough to get to 60mph in under 4 seconds, and there's no need for a higher gear because top speed is already capped by motor burst power and aero drag.

If the motor is something like 30-40kw, I'd probably lower the sprocket ratio. Don't want to loop it off the line.

 

[JRP3]

Has anyone ever use the swingarm pivot axel as a jackshaft to transmit drive power?

I don't know if anyone has done it but it seems as if it should work, other than possible clearance issues of fitting 2 sprockets without having the motor offset to one side and sticking out too far on the right side. Plus of course having to run an extra sprocket and chain.

 

[amberwolf]

[Added to original post]

Has anyone ever use the swingarm pivot axel as a jackshaft to transmit drive power?

Wondering if this can be done, or if I should stick with the swingarm-mounted motor design. Thanks!!

Can be, sure. I'll assume that your pivot only has bearings in the frame. This means you'll need to modify the points the pivot is fixed into on the swingarm so that they are also bearings, so that whatever shaft you replace the pivot pin with can spin freely *and* the swingarm can still pivot.

The shaft will need to be made so that it will stay centered in the assembly, and the swingarm can't move laterally on it either. I don't recommend using circlips as the grooves for them will be stress risers. You might be able to use threaded nuts if the lead into the threads is stress relieved (rounded) If you use a larger section with shoulders on the frame portion, make sure you relieve the change in diameter so those aren't stress risers, too.



Note that when the motor chain pulls there will be reaction torque on the swingarm and frame, whcih might affect suspension squat or extension during acceleration.

 

[kagemushablues]

I don't know if anyone has done it but it seems as if it should work, other than possible clearance issues of fitting 2 sprockets without having the motor offset to one side and sticking out too far on the right side. Plus of course having to run an extra sprocket and chain.

Thanks so much. Yes motor lateral position is definitely a good point. Two sprockets is a whopping 5cm and I'm not looking to run too wide a tire. Will take that into concern cheers.

 

[kagemushablues]

Can be, sure. I'll assume that your pivot only has bearings in the frame. This means you'll need to modify the points the pivot is fixed into on the swingarm so that they are also bearings, so that whatever shaft you replace the pivot pin with can spin freely *and* the swingarm can still pivot.

The shaft will need to be made so that it will stay centered in the assembly, and the swingarm can't move laterally on it either. I don't recommend using circlips as the grooves for them will be stress risers. You might be able to use threaded nuts if the lead into the threads is stress relieved (rounded) If you use a larger section with shoulders on the frame portion, make sure you relieve the change in diameter so those aren't stress risers, too.



Note that when the motor chain pulls there will be reaction torque on the swingarm and frame, whcih might affect suspension squat or extension during acceleration.

Thank so much for this.

I've realized while a jackshaft (shaft rotates) could work, as you say the fittings on the frame will need to be modified to accommodate bearings for a shaft vs. small degree movement cushioned pivot. It also puts too much shock stress on the shaft rotate bearings, especially if I'm riding hard. I'll need to reconsider.

I may go back to the swingarm mounted design instead. Though it will be heavy, the leverage from the wheel should make the bounce much lighter than say, a 12kw hub motor.

A main goal is to create a relatively adaptable drop-in solution that could easily be migrated to another frame - for example compatible with multiple makes of twin-spar aluminum frames like SV650s, VTRs, etc.

 

[JRP3]

Can be, sure. I'll assume that your pivot only has bearings in the frame. This means you'll need to modify the points the pivot is fixed into on the swingarm so that they are also bearings, so that whatever shaft you replace the pivot pin with can spin freely *and* the swingarm can still pivot.

I was thinking about putting bearings in the sprockets so they rotate independent of the shaft. The two sprockets would be joined so they rotate together as a single unit on the shaft, and the shaft remains as is.

 

[j bjork]

I was also thinking like JRP3, but the chain usually run OVER the swing arm, not to the inside of it. Would you really be able to get the chain to line up to a sprocket on the inside of the swing arm?
One option might be to put the motor in the pivot like zero does (or did?), but that also require a wide opening in the swing arm.

 

[Zambam]

One of the best frames for integration into electric.
I put 10 kWh of LG batteries in it.
The maximum distance that I have repeatedly traveled without charging the batteries is 260 km, but there was still enough capacity for another 30-50 km of travel.

That's a wild looking bent front fork! Who makes it? Or is it custom built?

https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/attachments/dsc_0532-jpg.369830/

 

[byke]

One of the best frames for integration into electric.
I put 10 kWh of LG batteries in it.
The maximum distance that I have repeatedly traveled without charging the batteries is 260 km, but there was still enough capacity for another 30-50 km of travel.

Love the minimalism. What is the distance between frame rails at the top where the subframe mounts? Or asked another way, what is the OD of your battery case? Also, what motor is that?

 

[Pilip]

Thank so much for this.

I've realized while a jackshaft (shaft rotates) could work, as you say the fittings on the frame will need to be modified to accommodate bearings for a shaft vs. small degree movement cushioned pivot. It also puts too much shock stress on the shaft rotate bearings, especially if I'm riding hard. I'll need to reconsider.

I may go back to the swingarm mounted design instead. Though it will be heavy, the leverage from the wheel should make the bounce much lighter than say, a 12kw hub motor.

A main goal is to create a relatively adaptable drop-in solution that could easily be migrated to another frame - for example compatible with multiple makes of twin-spar aluminum frames like SV650s, VTRs, etc.

In the axis of this pendulum there are two half-axles and they are of different thickness, respectively, and the bearings are also different, where the chain is located - the axis is thicker.
There are options for installing the motor in the pendulum in close proximity to the pendulum axis so that the unsprung mass is the smallest.
But there is an option for installing the motor like in your first photo, all this can be solved, but only with a complete redesign of the pendulum.

 

[Pilip]

That's a wild looking bent front fork! Who makes it? Or is it custom built?

https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/attachments/dsc_0532-jpg.369830/

Spoiler: This is the A. Lenherr-R. Weber lever-pendulum fork

 

[Pilip]

Love the minimalism. What is the distance between frame rails at the top where the subframe mounts? Or asked another way, what is the OD of your battery case? Also, what motor is that?

The dimensions of the box matched very well with the dimensions of the cells of the LG batteries with a capacity of 63 Ah, the total capacity is 22C 2 P 10 kWh.