Tabless design cylindrical cells tests

thermal_runaway said:

Looks like Varta in Germany is also producing tabless, appears to be a bit behind the Chinese manufacturers though:

V4DRIVE | Generation 1 - The high-performance booster cell for hybrid vehicles

Generation 1 cells impress with their fast-charging capability of less than 6 minutes, excellent cycle stability and long service life.

www.v4drive.com

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Very interesting!
Worth a read: Porsche considers acquiring a stake in Varta battery subsidiary V4Drive - electrive.com
Their V21700-H50 could be interesting—though by end of 2025, there might be other interesting alternatives out there.
Let's see!

Yeah. By 2026, we might have tabless Li-Sulfur cathodes with 30% Si anodes cells with energy densities in the 500-600Wh/kg range

Souvlucky said:

Their V21700-H50 could be interesting—though by end of 2025, there might be other interesting alternatives out there.

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Interesting chart! I'm not sure how they're rating power density since the numbers on that chart are lower than their datasheet (UHP-26 has max specific power of 17kW/L pulsed). Designation also indicates only "High Power" vs "Ultra High Power".

We should see production 5Ah tabless cells with ~60-70A capabilities by mid-2025 with >5Ah pre-production sampling; it'll certainly be a tough market.

Kumyang has some tabless 46mm cells (46/80*, 46/95, 46/110* and 46/120*) in the making
(* are under development as "Energy" variants; here's a shameless crosspost with more info.)

thermal_runaway said:

Interesting chart! I'm not sure how they're rating power density since the numbers on that chart are lower than their datasheet (UHP-26 has max specific power of 17kW/L pulsed). Designation also indicates only "High Power" vs "Ultra High Power".

We should see production 5Ah tabless cells with ~60-70A capabilities by mid-2025 with >5Ah pre-production sampling; it'll certainly be a tough market.

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@thermal_runaway look, a pleasant surprise!
(Sorry @Pajda, it couldn't be helped!)



Seems like pre-production V4Drive 21700 5.xAh cells.
Batemo tested them at 18.8 Wh at C/10.
Nominal rating given is 5.40Ah.

Pretty solid competition to the P50B at the stage!
Though probably not available for purchase anytime soon...


V4Drive V21700HEP-5.X(A0) left / Molicel INR-21700-P50B right

JP40 tested:
Holds really good voltage under 100A load!

These just came in, supposedly an Ampace JP40 on the bottom but we'll see when I toss it under load...

Hmm color looks right bit it's missing some text

thermal_runaway said:

These just came in, supposedly an Ampace JP40 on the bottom but we'll see when I toss it under load...

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So the BAK 45D seems to be first tabless cell with 4500 mAh available on the market.

riba2233 said:

Hmm color looks right bit it's missing some text

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I unfortunately did not have much time to test but initial impressions are that it's about competitive with the 40PL (so is at least authentic, or someone is selling rewrapped 40PLs . Somewhat oddly seems to have higher DCIR at low SoC but equivalent everywhere else.

Pajda said:

So the BAK 45D seems to be first tabless cell with 4500 mAh available on the market.

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Yeah, BAK seems to be the furthest along here among the major Chinese brands especially in offering a wide range of capacities from 4Ah up. I believe they have been supplying OEMs since earlier this year based on vendors telling me the 40D and 45D were available as extracted cells (same with Murata VX40s), although these are fresh from factory.

EVE's tabless lineup (46xx aside) as far as I have been told is currently only planned to be the 3Ah 18650 and 4Ah/5Ah 21700.

I believe Tenpower has only announced a 4Ah, Lishen has their 4Ah/5Ah product plan. Although for both companies their reps have not been very responsive.

thermal_runaway said:

I believe Tenpower has only announced a 4Ah,

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INR21700-40XG and INR21700-50XG

The EVE 4695E datasheet

Souvlucky said:

The EVE 4695E datasheet

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interesting, a bit different info compared to this previous info:


So it't 30Ah which is also not bad, but now I am confused because Pajda tested P variant and got 32Ah, shouldn't this E version have more? Also they are rated to 4.2V max charge after all, is that the difference (30 vs earlier 32Ah)?

Also looks a bit different compared to this pic:

added more cycles for EVE4680 sample in the midle of this post Tabless design cylindrical cells tests

I hope you have seen this, great results!

riba2233 said:

I hope you have seen this, great results!

Bench Test Results: LT 22710A (Ampace JP40?) - 60A 4000mAh 21700

These tests below only note my personal opinion for the ESTIMATED ratings for the batteries I tested at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, Murata, LG, Panasonic, Molicel, EVE, Lishen, BAK, or Sanyo can change...

www.e-cigarette-forum.com

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Incredible high cycle life if it continues decreasing linearly/logarithmically.

Mooch did again a great job. I asked 18650-21700.com site if they send me JP40 and AM3 samples, as they seem to be the only one distributor so far.

AM03? Do you have any more info on that?

Pajda said:

Mooch did again a great job. I asked 18650-21700.com site if they send me JP40 and AM3 samples, as they seem to be the only one distributor so far.

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Wow. The AM03 looks to be a kickass cell.

Its voltage drop is considerably lower than a 35E/EVE 35V at the same current draw, which means there was a big resistance cut somewhere its its design.

Is it tabless? Possibly, but there are probably other improvements even though tabs are often a big bottleneck for HE cells.

So it went fast. Austin from 18650-21700.com answered me back promptly that it should be no problem to send me samples of JP40 and AM03 for testing now and samples of AM04 and AM05 in near future.

The available info about the AM03 is that it is an 18650 format cell with ca 4Ah @ 13.5Wh at 2C discharge. So definitely a very interesting contender in the HE category. 18650 AM03 - High Energy Cell with 8a Discharge Rate

18650-21700.com want to use their AMxx brand on the cells they sell and below is their roadmap. We'll see if they disclose the original cell manufacturers in the future as they did with the Ampace JP40.

Ok that's interesting, thanks! More options are always better

Not sure if this is of any use, if not, I can delete it just let me know, simply searching for tabless cells got me this:

More testing is ongoing but here’s some info on the cycle life of EVE 40PL cells available now. After 200 abusive cycles*** the run time/capacity of the cell only dropped 5.6%. Significantly better than the very disappointing cycle life of the (presumably) pre-production cell(s) @Pajda tested.



***5A charge to 4.20V (terminated at 500mA), 0-60 second rest, 30A discharge to 2.50V, allow cell temp to drop to 40°C-45°C, repeat.

That is good to hear, thanks!

I just wanna say yall are doing some good research. Good, hard numbers. Exploring these round can cells well. Good vid, Reba, shows the capability of this cell in real world well. That IR is unbeleivible.. and for a small cell, well yall know what happens. Sucks cause they might be really expensive for a long time.. at least these will push the Molicell fans into affording enough for a good pack. Without spending 3K.


lol. Got blessed, so much trouble for a pack. My K- Weld sits, weeping, thinkkn bout the future. these cells are decent. Finally good power out of a round cell. I cant believe that IR.

On another note, I was told to take IR on charge only, and when you hook multimeters with different AC signals comming out of the leads.... it fiddles witht he HRM 10 readings... my scope told me. maybe that is why it shows so low.. I would like to see the cell tested with that machine alone. Both cells show different from manuf published ACIR numbers? the moli and the jp40...? I did check the accuracy of mine, as long as the probes are connected and its not hooked up to a multimeter in circuit its accurate... Do you notice the difference if you apply a charge, vs discharge, while reading with that meter/ this is my test today.

The multimeter is absolutely outputting a AC signal sine wave voltage and the HRM 10 manual says to absolutely NOT apply ANY AC voltage to the leads. Live dangerously lol its only 40$ eh? Be careful, I noticed som e flycback spikes when i was checking mine out. ... between the meter and the HRm... with my 10 megahm input resistance scope. Weird stuff happening. be careful. IDK if it messes anything up but .. IDK how a round cell could show that low. Good god. Dont put that shit loose in your pocket with some coins.

Lol Fukes suck anymore. Taiwan. China. ...built.

That is absolutly craxy. 100A out of that cell. gebus. i cannot get over it. ol.

Also wanna say I'll still destroy ya in the power department, amp hour for amp hour, using these thingies all day. Cheaper and longer lasting. Finally a cell that can compete. Yet yeah 100A gets ya really hot.. and if that was spread over .. say.. a 5p pack, group, that would be good and it wouldnt get hot. Finally a powerful ebike cell that I would be willing to bujild with .. and IF I can get that power from a smaller pack, of say 100x of these cells.. that would be awesome... a 5p20s, 100 cell pack with a group IR of 1/5th an mOh. Lol goddam. No sag ever again.

My cells dont get temperature until 4C ( 100A) and not 25* till 6C and well over 250A contin capable ea. I love comparing the best round cells to the Ev cells of the top of the line market nowadays.

lol. Im not hoping. I'm knowing. Ok I'll go back to lurking now.