G062 or G060 geared hub motor owners.....is anyone using Spintend Lite 100A/100V VESC controller?

[pullin-gs]

I am changing out controllers.
My old controller is setup for maximum 45Amps at battery.
My battery is 48V 35AH (13S7P) pack.
What VESC settings did you settle on which works well for this motor?
Did you setup "field weakening" to allow motor to spin faster than its natural Kv?
Thanks
P

 

[pullin-gs]

Other than a bit of a learning curve, this controller setup pretty easily using VESC tool. The thottle (standard ebike throttle setup using tips above) is a bit twitchy with bench-run motor. But I expect things will straighten out when I install on my ebike. The motor RPM ramps up to 100% RPM quickly vs progressively as I increase throttle. I expect this is normal when bench running unloaded motor?

 

[scianiac]

Yes with no load the motor will spin to max RPM very quickly. I have a pair of G062s one a 75100 dual VESC and they do seem to run very well, no tuning issues and I can push them pretty hard. Field weakening probably won't work very well, not sure it's worth it on this type of motor but I haven't tried. You can push quite a bit of current through them as long as you keep them cool to not overheat the nylon gears.

 

[neptronix]

Generally the autodetect will work even if you have a broken motor, high rpm geared motors are no problem either.
Use the defaults but back the amps off because it usually sets really high amperages.

Field weakening i have not fully figured out yet, i believe the 'field weakening' amps value should be higher than you expect, i found this advice on the web:

Field Weakening 101 - (or how to make your VESC board going faster )

 

[pullin-gs]

Thanks. Under load things clear up regarding RPM. However I have noticed that low-RPM torque is way down and I feel cogging also under low speed full throttle. At higher speeds performance is as expected. Low speed power is terrible though compared to old setup (cheap Chinese 50A sinewave controller). Motor is setup as sensorless. Halls are not connected up.

 

[neptronix]

are you using sensorless?

what are your phase amp / battery amp settings?

 

[pullin-gs]

are you using sensorless?

what are your phase amp / battery amp settings?

Battery is a 48V 35AH build.
Controller configured:
Sensorless (hall wires not even plugged in).
Battery amps 45 amps. Motor amps (I think this is phase amps) 65 amps.
Other FOC settings set by auto discovery process.
Post-setup (described above) performance: Very slow acceleration until RPMs ramp up. Once this occurs acceleration and power is excellent. For street use this is fine and max-speed is even better than old controller.
However I built this bike (4 years ago) as a purpose-built woods off-road bike.
Fast forward to 4:50min of this video to see what I am talking about.

When I roll throttle back, I get instant full power even at lowest RPMs (even from start!) with old $25 controller.
I've played around a bit with FOC & HFI settings per the many recommendations in various forums with no luck.
Perhaps low-rpm performance is just not possible in sensorless mode with Spintend VESC controllers?
Thoughts? Thanks for the help.

 

[scianiac]

Why not just plug in the hall sensor wires? Part of the problem with these motors is the most common wind is still pretty fast so with big wheels it's low end torque is not impressive unless phase amps are high. My G062 powered bike also has decent low end torque but after it picks up a bit it gets too fast to ride very quickly. No idea what the top speed is but I know it's too fast to ride on anything but pavement or maybe smooth wet sand. I also have the phase current set quite a it higher, I don't recall at what but I know it's higher than 65A. (I can go check it you really want to know)

It's likely that that cheap controller was just throwing way more phase amps at the motor. Many of these cheap controllers seem to mostly or sometimes only limit battery current, so from a stop and at low RPM they just throw a ton of phase amps at the motor but then when they pick up speed the total power is limited.

 

[pullin-gs]

Thanks for the input. I started working on wiring up halls this morning.
High amps is expected with cheap controller, yes, but I have literally thousands of hard miles on this 2KW build and only just recently replaced worn out gears. Phase max 70amps seems to be number thrown around by G062 veterans else stock nylon shreds, so I expect it is not higher on old controller given durability I have had with setup.
Anyway, sensored will avoid some of the VESC startup challenges getting FOC/HFI to perform well for "clutched" gear hub drives.
If things do not perform as expected after adding in halls, I'll dial up the phase amps (but keep motor amps maxed to same as my old controller) and see how things go.
Thanks.
PS: Dont undersell high-torque off-road capability of G062 (26x4 tires). Check the above video (most challenging section starts around timestamp 4:30 after crash) of typical off-road ride. Max speed is 34MPH on pavement. In woods and loose sand I keep it between 10MPH and 20MPH throughout entire ride.

 

[neptronix]

Sensorless on any controller is going to have weak torque until you tune it. Especially on VESC.

Try 2xing the observer gain parameter vs what was detected in the FOC settings; this should greatly increase low end torque in sensorless mode.

For phase amps value, i would run a minimum of 2x battery current also.

 

[scianiac]

Thanks for the input. I started working on wiring up halls this morning.
High amps is expected with cheap controller, yes, but I have literally thousands of hard miles on this 2KW build and only just recently replaced worn out gears. Phase max 70amps seems to be number thrown around by G062 veterans else stock nylon shreds, so I expect it is not higher on old controller given durability I have had with setup.
Anyway, sensored will avoid some of the VESC startup challenges getting FOC/HFI to perform well for "clutched" gear hub drives.
If things do not perform as expected after adding in halls, I'll dial up the phase amps (but keep motor amps maxed to same as my old controller) and see how things go.
Thanks.
PS: Dont undersell high-torque off-road capability of G062 (26x4 tires). Check the above video (most challenging section starts around timestamp 4:30 after crash) of typical off-road ride. Max speed is 34MPH on pavement. In woods and loose sand I keep it between 10MPH and 20MPH throughout entire ride.

From what I've seen the max phase amps for the G062 with nylon gears is more about the gears getting hot and shredding than just stripping from raw torque. I've seen people push tons of phase amps with cooling or in short bursts. I'm still hesitant to go super high even though my motors have the added advantage of being cover in snow for cooling.

Yeah I wouldn't say this motor with 26x4 tires is bad off road, still has good low end torque, better than you are describing with your current setup. It's just once you get above 5-10mph if feels like it really kicks in and by the numbers the winding is fast. Also my comparisons and conditions are a bit skewed, my other offroad bike has absurd quantities of low end torque and is hyper optimized for 0-10mph highly technical riding. I use the dual G062 bike in snow so on hard pack it's quite peppy but nothing eats power and torque quite like deep snow. I do run out of real wheel torque at low speeds after the snow is deeper than a foot if there is any incline but it seems to do so gracefully, putting up a fight right to the end and starting when heavily loaded, of course halls are connected.

 

[neptronix]

I also get nervous about running a much over 2:1 phase amp to battery amp ratios when i hear a motor has gears.
That's because i'm usually overvolting and over amping it to begin with. I need a little thermal/mechanical headroom and subtracting some potentially low rpm power is the most liveable compromise.

 

[pullin-gs]

From what I've seen the max phase amps for the G062 with nylon gears is more about the gears getting hot and shredding than just stripping from raw torque. I've seen people push tons of phase amps with cooling or in short bursts. I'm still hesitant to go super high even though my motors have the added advantage of being cover in snow for cooling.

Yeah I wouldn't say this motor with 26x4 tires is bad off road, still has good low end torque, better than you are describing with your current setup. It's just once you get above 5-10mph if feels like it really kicks in and by the numbers the winding is fast. Also my comparisons and conditions are a bit skewed, my other offroad bike has absurd quantities of low end torque and is hyper optimized for 0-10mph highly technical riding. I use the dual G062 bike in snow so on hard pack it's quite peppy but nothing eats power and torque quite like deep snow. I do run out of real wheel torque at low speeds after the snow is deeper than a foot if there is any incline but it seems to do so gracefully, putting up a fight right to the end and starting when heavily loaded, of course halls are connected.

Neptronix, Scianiac,
Thanks for the detailed feedback.
I went ahead and switched things over to sensored. Things spun up fine on my bench bike-mount. I'll update thread when I road-test things out. The bike is out of commission for the next few days. I am taking advantage of downtime and refurbishing forks, lubing motor, replacing worn out brake pads. For good measure I also replaced motor cable and put on 5mm bullet connections (vs solder joints before) on phase&power wires to controller....I shrink over top of paired connections to seal/hold things in place.
I like these so much I'm going to put them in my other rides!
Regarding managing torque with G062r off road G062, I found a sweet-spot for wood and florida-sand is 12S (44V) pack. Top speed suffers (28-ish MPH), so not very good for streets.
Keeping phase amps below 2:1 is something I'm going to do. I wish I measured max phase amps before I swapped out the old controller so I could match that.
Scianiac, did you ever post any build threads on your G062 bikes?
PS: Updated signature to includes my builds over the years.

Thanks all, P

 

[scianiac]

Scianiac, did you ever post any build threads on your G062 bikes?

I should really do some build threads, I have 3 bikes and working on a 4th that I've wanted to do threads on but haven't found the time. Here is a picture of the dual G062 bike. I've been using 52V and it's been plenty fast but that was a temporary battery and I have a 60V battery that is almost done, 60V only because the cells fit better that way. The new battery will be able to be mounted farther forward to get more weight over the front, we'll see how that works.

 

[pullin-gs]

You did some youtube videos on it, right? I got some good information from videos for a similar looking bike (built for speed I think, not pulling) when I first jumped into learning VSEC controller.

 

[scianiac]

You did some youtube videos on it, right? I got some good information from videos for a similar looking bike (built for speed I think, not pulling) when I first jumped into learning VSEC controller.

Must have been somebody else, although I should make some videos.

 

[pullin-gs]

Some progress......
Pack is 48V 13S2P INR21700-50G which can push 50+ amps fine.
Max battery current is set to 40A.
Max motor current is 95A.
Observer Gain is set to 1.5.
Sensorless ERPM is set to 2000.
Sensor Interpolation ERPM 250

Street testing performance for speeds above 10MPH is fine.
VESC real-time display amp reading is indeed pegging out at maximum 95 amps at low speed, but does not "feel" as peppy as old controller. Old controller must have been dumping much more current.
Observation:
Even though VESC RT monitor reads 95 maximum amps the 30 amp battery fuse does not blow.
On the old controller 30amp fuse would blow every time I pulled away at maximum throttle.

I'd dial up the motor current more, but UBOX Lite is rated for 100A maximum.

 

[scianiac]

Usually VESCs are rated based on max continuous current and peak current, it kinda feels like the UBOX lite's 100A rating is the continuous rating, not sure why they don't list both like most do. I've heard of people pushing spintend controllers well above their ratings. Really if the controller is running well you can often push the current pretty high for short pulls, instability causing voltage and current spikes is what often kills controllers not stable operation just pushing the current. High current just makes the FETs heat up and the controller throttle's back the power in response.

 

[pullin-gs]

More progress......Almost there I think.
Hopefully this will help others with G062 VESC controller.
Low-torque performance is very close to old brick China 50A controller....I'm happy for now. Real test will be off road on washed out forest roads and single track. Will update later.
Motor is 100% stock 48V G062 Bafang 6T,, 5-to-1 geared motor.
Sensors plugged in.
Spintend UBOX LITE 100A Controller setup.
***
NOTE: Aggressive current setup...use at own risk. "Safe" max phase current is 70 amps tossed around by G062 veterans!
***
firmware 6.05.
VESC Tool 6.05
Settings manually put in AFTER running motor discovery and setting up ADC1 channel for ebike 3.3V throttle.
Sensorless ERPM = 2000
Sensor Interpolation ERPM = 250
Open Loop ERPM = 500 ...may drop to 250-300
The Open Loop ERPM could go to 100–300 for snappier dead-stop launches?
500 keeps from slamming gears w/immediate max-torque and saving gears.
Motor Settings → General>Motor Type: FOC
Sensor Mode: Hall Sensors (enabled)
Battery Voltage: 54 V (full charge V of 48V lipo)
Battery Current Max: 45A
I fuse the controller at 40A......observation is a 30A fuse wont blow under normal operation.
Battery Current Max Regen: 0A (no regen capability for G062 unless you weld clutch plates).
Motor Current Max: 100–110 A (I'm at 110 A — good for short bursts high torque requirements for off-road obstacles)
With 13S battery, motor current drops quickly to 50 amps or less when moving at 10+mph.
Advice: 72V builds may want to go much lower with Max Motor Amps.
Motor Current Max Regen: 0A (no regen w/stock motor)
Absolute Max Current: 130-150 A

Motor Settings → General → Advanced Duty Cycle Current Limit to Start: 0.85 (85%) — will try Maximum Duty Cycle: 0.93 – 0.95?
Minimum Amps: 0.05 A (works with hall sensored motor config. Sensorless configuration requires as much as 2.0 amps)
Slow ABS Current Limit: True / On

Motor Settings → FOC → General Observer Gain: 1.5 – 2.0

Open Loop ERPM / Startup ERPM: 500
Field Weakening: Off (unless you need extra top speed...will play around with this later)
I found this on another forum: Speed Tracker Position Source: Corrected Position (recommended for firmware 6.05 stability)

Throttle / App Settings Throttle ramp / acceleration ramp time: 0.2 – 0.5 seconds (lower = snappier response)
Throttle curve: Linear or slight exponential for more immediate low-end feel.

 

[scianiac]

All looks pretty good, the only thing I would change is turn off slow ABS current, if you need to you can turn the absolute max current up a little to prevent overcurrent faults. That is it's better to have a little higher absolute max current with slow ABS off than a lower ABS current with it on. 2x phase current is a common value thrown around for absolute max but better if you can put it lower.

If you are worried about the gears I wouldn't be too worried. Bafang G062.1000.DC mods to run peak 6000w +regen Note where he is putting in 190-200 phase amps with nylon gears. The issue is heat both for the gears and maybe the magnet glue? And at some point you start slipping the clutch.

Wish I had put in temperature sensors in my motors when I opened them, if I recall all I did was regrease them with a special grease mix I made up for the application.

 

[neptronix]

I also put it lower than 2x because i want rapid stall protection actually, but by default, it's too overzealous

 

[pullin-gs]

Two steps forward.....one step back.
Sensor circuit on controller died. Swapped out cable and motor from spares stash....did not help.... sensor discovery wizard and motor setup reported back "Bad sensor" error message.
Back to sensorless......had much better luck this time around due to better understanding of how VESC Tool configuration options work. Anyway, motor performs OK at low speed&torque requirements.
Max speed is only 28MPH for 13S6P 30AH pack. This is expected for VESC I suppose...I was getting 33 MPH with old controller.

My next pack build (the reason I needed a compact Spintend controller) is 13S7P (48V, 35Ah)....maybe I'll build a 52V 30AH pack instead?
Or try out Field Weakening for a 10% RPM boost over motor's max RPM?
Anyway, here is my current "good" configuration for G062 sensorless build:
******
Spintend UPOX LITE 100A Sensorless Controller setup.

firmware 6.05.
Sensorless ERPM = 2000
Open Loop ERPM = 1200

Motor Settings → GeneralMotor Type: FOC
Sensor Mode: Sensorless
13S7P battery configuration
Battery Voltage: 54 V
Battery Cutoff Voltage Start: 42 V
Battery Cutoff Voltage End: 39 V
Battery Current Max: 45A
Battery Current Max Regen: 0A (no regen capability for G062 unless you weld clutch plates).
Motor Current Max: 120 A
With 13S battery, current drops quickly to 50 amps or below when moving.
Motor Current Max Regen: 0A (not used)
Absolute Max Current: 180 A

Motor Settings → General → Advanced Duty Cycle Current Limit to Start: 0.09 (90%)
Minimum Amps: Sensorless needs to be high compared to sensored: 1 A
Slow ABS Current Limit: True / On

Motor Settings → FOC → General -> Observer Gain: 2.5

Motor Settings → FOC → Hall Sensors or Sensorless ERPM: 2000
Sensor Interpolation ERPM: 250
Open Loop ERPM / Startup ERPM: 1200
Openloop Current 7A


Speed Tracker Position Source: Corrected Position (recommended for stability)
Field Weakening: Off (unless you need extra top speed...will play around with this later)

Throttle / App Settings -> Throttle ramp 0.5 seconds (needed...otherwise throttle when motor is "coasting" (motor not engaged) will slam gears.
Throttle curve: Linear or slight exponential for more immediate low-end feel.

 

[scianiac]

I don't know if it's in the current version yet but there was a feature added called overmodulation I think it was that may be a good way to add more speed. From my understanding it basically does what the old controller was probably doing all the time, that is it switches the driving to more like a trapezoidal shape instead of a nice sine wave but only at high speed when you run out of duty cycle. Of course you loose a little efficiency but I think for these types of motors (not very salient) it's better than using field weakening, that is there is less efficiency loss.

Weird that the sensor circuit died, I wonder why?

 

[pullin-gs]

Forest roads ride report:
Bike performed very well. I'm happy with results.
There has been no rain here in ages, so the sand was loose and deep on the forest roads, so pushing through them took gobs of amps.
Throughout the ride phase amps stayed mostly below 70A.
About 10% of ride was over 70A with a few slow-speed off-road pulls through ruts&gullies where I pushed into 110-ish amps
For the most part I road like I always do except I did keep off the most gnarly portions though.....next time I'll hit those.
The controller temperature rose pretty quick into 60+ degrees, hitting 80 degrees after about 6 miles. Over-temp current limiting never kicked in (set at 85 degrees).
One pleasant surprise is my total range off-road riding mileageincreased by about 10-20% with this FOC controller.
Old pack I could get 25 off-road miles. Same pack w/FOC I can get around 30 miles. Also I noticed that power fade as pack discharges is much less with this controller. Maybe because I'm running less amps and FOC more efficient thus less voltage sag?

 

[scianiac]

Do you have a heatsink on the ubox? Probably wouldn't take much of one to bring the controller temps down.