Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[yantra yatra]

Can’t see how debris could have possibly gotten in there. Have only ridden about 30km in total. Pretty annoying that though I ordered a wheel with a temp sensor installed they didn’t tell me that the controller can’t actually utilise the temp sensor.(heads up for new buyers).

Looks like I’ll have to pull it off again. Finding that Ebikes are a massive time sink, much more time researching, fixing than using

 

[yantra yatra]

Have to say that with reports of people using these motors at 10-12kw peak that I thought using it under 4kw with statorade would be all right. Maybe not

 

[Cowardlyduck]

10-12KW? Lots? ummmmm are you talking about the Leaf?
AFAIK, I'm one of only a few to push them beyond 8KW.

Cheers

 

[neptronix]

Have to say that with reports of people using these motors at 10-12kw peak that I thought using it under 4kw with statorade would be all right. Maybe not

I'm not sure i caught what wheel size you're using.
But i could sustain 2.5kw for long periods of time in a 26" wheel on an older motor. Could take 4-6kw for decent periods of time
If you are using a 29" wheel then it would explain the large discrepancy.

Odd sound- could the sound be from your disc brake?

 

[neptronix]

Changing tubes is a pain with torque arms etc, hopefully don’t need to do it too often

I would think strongly about using sealant for this reason. Or a super thick tire ( Kenda makes a number of them )

 

[The Toecutter]

Can’t see how debris could have possibly gotten in there. Have only ridden about 30km in total. Pretty annoying that though I ordered a wheel with a temp sensor installed they didn’t tell me that the controller can’t actually utilise the temp sensor.(heads up for new buyers).

Looks like I’ll have to pull it off again. Finding that Ebikes are a massive time sink, much more time researching, fixing than using

I had melted pieces of rubber and wiring plus bits of solder in my 4T built into a 26" wheel. But that took over 2 years of use and tens of thousands of miles, starting at 1500W/96Aphase and moving up as changing my components allowed. 10kW/250Aphase is what first killed it while I was peeling out in parking lots and abusing the crap out of it. I was running far more phase current on the trike than I should have and eventually cooked the wires with a BAC4000. I did have to start running it sensorless at the end of its life and it developed a delay in reacting to the input of my PAS. I decided it was time to upgrade.

I swapped it out for a 3T in a 20" wheel and moved the 4T onto my mountainbike, and had immediate issues with the 4T that now made it completely unusable. The 4T motor was difficult to spin and made a feint grinding noise that was periodic, then soon turning into a crunching noise when there was lots of debris loose and the friction was worse. It made the bike unpedalable. I had to take the motor apart and thoroughly clean it with a compressed air can as well as chip some melted metal chunks out of various places. Not only was the motor laden with debris caught between magnet pairs which prevented me from spinning the rotor by hand, but I needed to replace the bearings due to mileage.

Melted bits of wiring and solder must have worked their way loose during removal/installation, which were not a problem when the motor was used on the trike. I also took the opportunity to replace the Hall-effect sensors as a result while getting the mountainbike working with this motor. At the time, I was only trying to run the mountainbike at 750W/96Aphase with a Phaserunner. Now I run the 4T at 1500W/96Aphase, no issues, wattage limited by my battery. I might later run it at 10kW again when I get an appropriate battery and controller for it along with a sturdier bike frame, DOT rims/tires, and better brakes, although I'll cut max phase current down to 150A so I don't destroy anything again.

As for the 3T motor, it works flawlessly. I just removed it from my trike in preparation to build a quad out of it. I'm planning to put it into my other trike frame.

 

[Logic11]

As for the 3T motor, it works flawlessly. I just removed it from my trike in preparation to build a quad out of it. I'm planning to put it into my other trike frame.

I'm looking forward to that build log and driving experience? (Well; until the police confiscate your unlicensed 'car'!?)

2 Hub motors? 4??
Torque vectoring/electronic differential?

 

[ZeroEm]

Have to say that with reports of people using these motors at 10-12kw peak that I thought using it under 4kw with statorade would be all right. Maybe not

Leafmotor will run at 1.5k and not get hot. I'm sorry people told you can run 8 times more power thru it and it would be ok. QS 273 only has a single sprocket but it can handle 12k and not get hot.

The leafmotor can run a 7 speed cassette. motors that have more power than the leafmotor have a single sprocket or no sprocket.

 

[The Toecutter]

Leafmotor will run at 1.5k and not get hot. I'm sorry people told you can run 8 times more power thru it and it would be ok. QS 273 only has a single sprocket but it can handle 12k and not get hot.

The leafmotor can run a 7 speed cassette. motors that have more power than the leafmotor have a single sprocket or no sprocket.

4 kW for minutes at a time shouldn't even damage it. The motor can take much more with modification, but 4 kW peak in stock configuration is a very reasonable expectation.

I'm looking forward to that build log and driving experience? (Well; until the police confiscate your unlicensed 'car'!?)

2 Hub motors? 4??
Torque vectoring/electronic differential?

A hub motor in each front wheel and a middrive plus pedal output going to separate sprockets on a composite limited-slip differential in the rear. Each motor will have its own controller. I'm going to start with three Phaserunners, with 3kW/45Aphase to each front motor and 4kW/96Aphase to the middrive. Without using field weakening, this will be capable of 80+ mph @ 20S and similar acceleration to what it had with the single Leafbike @ 10kW, and with field weakening, much more top speed is possible. Possibly into the triple digits with a body.

The next body is going to make it look like a cross between an Auto Union Type C streamliner and a Stanguellini Colibri. It's going to be a slippery bastard that hopefully only needs 5 kW to cruise 100 mph.

I will later upgrade to 20kW or more with controller changeouts and wiring upgrades. Depending upon controller selection, I may go as high as 36S.

Most of the time, I will be operating it as a "street legal" ebike with a 750W / 28 mph limit to its assist while pedaling, and as a velomobile, it will be capable of much more on flat ground and downhill with just my legs making thrust. Of course, it will have a "track mode" for when no one else is looking or where jurisdiction allows me to get away with it.

I have the trike apart waiting on a piece for my front suspension to arrive. Then I can fit the front motors up to it.

 

[ZeroEm]

4 kW for minutes at a time shouldn't even damage it. The motor can take much more with modification, but 4 kW peak in stock configuration is a very reasonable expectation.



A hub motor in each front wheel and a middrive plus pedal output going to separate sprockets on a composite limited-slip differential in the rear. Each motor will have its own controller. I'm going to start with three Phaserunners, with 3kW/45Aphase to each front motor and 4kW/96Aphase to the middrive. Without using field weakening, this will be capable of 80+ mph @ 20S and similar acceleration to what it had with the single Leafbike @ 10kW, and with field weakening, much more top speed is possible. Possibly into the triple digits with a body.

The next body is going to make it look like a cross between an Auto Union Type C streamliner and a Stanguellini Colibri. It's going to be a slippery bastard that hopefully only needs 5 kW to cruise 100 mph.

I will later upgrade to 20kW or more with controller changeouts and wiring upgrades. Depending upon controller selection, I may go as high as 36S.

Most of the time, I will be operating it as a "street legal" ebike with a 750W / 28 mph limit to its assist while pedaling, and as a velomobile, it will be capable of much more on flat ground and downhill with just my legs making thrust. Of course, it will have a "track mode" for when no one else is looking or where jurisdiction allows me to get away with it.

I have the trike apart waiting on a piece for my front suspension to arrive. Then I can fit the front motors up to it.

I'm waiting!

Just saying the leafmotor is great for what it is, if your after high power in a single motor need to look else where.
My battery has limited my motor to just under 3k, have never had an issue. Speed is limited so it never see's high power for very long. Have run it for 7.5 yrs now and don't expect it to quit me.

Wanting more motors myself for the thrill of it. Not that more than one is needed but three is a nice non round number.

 

[The Toecutter]

I'm waiting!

Just saying the leafmotor is great for what it is, if your after high power in a single motor need to look else where.
My battery has limited my motor to just under 3k, have never had an issue. Speed is limited so it never see's high power for very long. Have run it for 7.5 yrs now and don't expect it to quit me.

Wanting more motors myself for the thrill of it. Not that more than one is needed but three is a nice non round number.

I originally quoted yantra yatra. Somewhere along the way it glitched and my response ended up addressed to you.

 

[ZeroEm]

AI did it! Wanting a 24" wild one from stein trikes and add grin's motors to the front.

 

[The Toecutter]

AI did it! Wanting a 24" wild one from stein trikes and add grin's motors to the front.

...and keep a Leafbike motor in the rear as well. Have AWD for snow/ice/offroad riding. If the motors don't have matched kV, run field weakening on the slower motor(s) to even them out.

 

[yantra yatra]

Does anyone know how to remove the freewheel on this motor without a freewheel removal tool? Apparently it can be done with long nose pliers

Edit: alternatively if the side cover can come off on the wire side / brake disc side, I could take that off, but I don't think that's possible with the freewheel side cover on

 

[neptronix]

You really want the tool. The side cover should be able to be pried off with the freewheel on.

I would use your gear puller from the disc side. you could mounta disc you don't mind being destroyed and use that to pop off the cover on the opposite side.

 

[n00b]

Does anyone know how to remove the freewheel on this motor without a freewheel removal tool? Apparently it can be done with long nose pliers

Edit: alternatively if the side cover can come off on the wire side / brake disc side, I could take that off, but I don't think that's possible with the freewheel side cover on

Break yourself and get a proper tool or 2. Who's that that makes the best ones?
Park. Park tool.
If you're gonna work on bikes, you need cluster removers (both kinds) and chain whips and crank pullers and all that.
I doubt any of the tools crack $20 if you don't go premium.
That being said, you can booger a threaded cluster off, probably with a hammer and big screwdriver.
Basically you destroy it to get it off, no re-use. It can be done without messing up the hub or threads, though.
It comes off the normal way. Counter-clockwise to loosen.Put the screwdriver at an angle and hammer the little notches inside counter-clockwise. Butchery!
I've done it. Wasn't pretty.

 

[Apartunis]

My method to remove freewheels that lack a removal spline, or those with a damaged removal spline, is to disassemble the freewheel by taking off the outer bearing race with a pin spanner or small punch, then to use a big pipe wrench on the freewheel core. Note this is usually destructive to the freewheel pawl seats.

 

[OlderGiantFan]

Nah, winding changes won't help you on this motor. Unless your battery can't supply sufficient amps and you're losing efficiency to that. Then going
This type of motor design is most efficient in a 20" or 22" wheel. The closer you are to that, the better it will be at climbing

So what's the science behind this? The smaller wheel is like running a lower gear, providing a lighter load on the engine for a given speed?

 

[amberwolf]

very basically, leaving a lot out

faster a motor spins,the higher it's bemf, the lower the phase current into it.

lower phase current lower mag fields into laminations, less likely saturation= less wasted power as heat and less heat total

but lower phase current also means lower motor torque

once you experiment with it sufficiently, you may be able to see this directly in the graphs / chart at the ebikes.ca motor simulator

 

[yantra yatra]

After waiting a few weeks for freewheel removal tool to arrive, it couldn’t fit over the oversized axle. After filing it for a long time could get it to fit. But the freewheel won’t come off. Trying to turn it anticlockwise. Even with a lot of force - hammer and block of wood - it doesn’t budge.

Edit: it’s a Shimano mf-tz500-7. Can’t upload a pic.

 

[Apartunis]

After waiting a few weeks for freewheel removal tool to arrive, it couldn’t fit over the oversized axle. After filing it for a long time could get it to fit. But the freewheel won’t come off. Trying to turn it anticlockwise. Even with a lot of force - hammer and block of wood - it doesn’t budge.

Edit: it’s a Shimano mf-tz500-7. Can’t upload a pic.

They get stuck either due to large pedaling forces in low gear ratios, or more commonly because they were originally installed without enough lube on the threads. You'll have to turn it harder.

Put the tool in a big bench vise and use the wheel to twist with.

 

[The Toecutter]

After waiting a few weeks for freewheel removal tool to arrive, it couldn’t fit over the oversized axle. After filing it for a long time could get it to fit. But the freewheel won’t come off. Trying to turn it anticlockwise. Even with a lot of force - hammer and block of wood - it doesn’t budge.

Edit: it’s a Shimano mf-tz500-7. Can’t upload a pic.

I've had that happen two years ago. I was generous with my application of anti-seize when this particular DNP Epoch was initially installed. Removal required a vice, a gooseneck wrench, and steel square tubing acting as an extension bar to get loose. My legs were not very nice to that freewheel. Surprisingly, the freewheel mount on the motor still holds up great; I was worried I was going to destroy that part of my 3T motor.

 

[yantra yatra]

The stator and rotor are touching at the bottom and not at the top. Does anyone know if this can be fixed? I’d guess about 15km on the motor

 

[neptronix]

That will happen with the cover off ( the stator will be attracted to one side )
how are those side cover bearings? a little sloppy?

 

[yantra yatra]

Bearings are fine on the freewheel side. Are you supposed to be able to get the side cover off on the cable/brake disc wide? Do you bump the axle on the ground on the other side to get it off?