Mid drive chain efficiency and longevity tips

[neptronix]

Shimano also makes some ebike specific chains which are said to last 3x longer.
https://bike.shimano.com/en-UK/products/components/pdp.P-CN-HG701-11.html

It works very well. It's an extremely concentrated concoction of 3 surfactants, 2 normal ones and a glcyol ether.
I managed to replicate it at home, in an unsafe manner, by mixing my highest concentration laundry detergent and adding some DOT3 brake fluid.

Man..

Anyway, the toughest chains are single speed, that single 8spd YBN chain, 10s YBN chains and SRAM XX1/X01 12 speed.

Why are single speed chains tougher? i suppose you have thicker plates and wider rolling surfaces.

 

[BlueSwordM]

Shimano also makes some ebike specific chains which are said to last 3x longer.
https://bike.shimano.com/en-UK/products/components/pdp.P-CN-HG701-11.html


Man..



Why are single speed chains tougher? i suppose you have thicker plates and wider rolling surfaces.

Single speed chains can use thicker higher grade parts.
Also, single speed chains can have a perfect chain line and no shifiting to deal with.
Furthermore, since single speed chains can easily be enclosed, that means you can just use a thicker clingy high quality lubricant that doesn't get flung off or is immune to external contamination due to that enclosure.

YBN sells some single speed 20 000km chains for rental ebikes as a reference.

 

[neptronix]

Interesting but it's a hard sell for a mid drive when the main attraction is variable gearing :/

Possibly the thing to use with the last reduction stage on a RC drive though

 

[BlueSwordM]

Interesting but it's a hard sell for a mid drive when the main attraction is variable gearing :/

Possibly the thing to use with the last reduction stage on a RC drive though

Yeah, so your best bet is to get a 10s YBN chain, or an 11/12s X01/XX1 chain (ideally 12 speed) and either long range waxes or Silca Synerg-E.

After that, start-stop technique and shifting is what dictates life the most (if using commercial waxes) or cleaning regimen (if using Silca Synerg-E).

 

[scianiac]

My theory is that the chain durability is mostly down to the material (and coatings) and the reason some narrower chains last longer is just because they use harder steel than the cheap ones and that is also why some brands of chains last much longer and you can easily make a single speed last a very very long time as long as it's made of decent steel but only some mfgs actually do that...

Thing is some of it may be the cost of the steel but I'm guessing a lot it is also tooling. All those plates have to be stamped and the harder you make the steel, not sure if the parts are hardened after stamping but either way, the more expensive that is as it wears out the dies faster.

 

[biphaeboh]

My theory is that the chain durability is mostly down to the material (and coatings) and the reason some narrower chains last longer is just because they use harder steel than the cheap ones and that is also why some brands of chains last much longer and you can easily make a single speed last a very very long time as long as it's made of decent steel but only some mfgs actually do that...

Thing is some of it may be the cost of the steel but I'm guessing a lot it is also tooling. All those plates have to be stamped and the harder you make the steel, not sure if the parts are hardened after stamping but either way, the more expensive that is as it wears out the dies faster.

I think you're right. Some of the narrower chains have harder steel, which is part of why they cost so much. Thats why we need data. Which is lacking.

 

[WaverlyCycles]

It works very well. It's an extremely concentrated concoction of 3 surfactants, 2 normal ones and a glcyol ether.
I managed to replicate it at home, in an unsafe manner, by mixing my highest concentration laundry detergent and adding some DOT3 brake fluid.

Anyway, the toughest chains are single speed, that single 8spd YBN chain, 10s YBN chains and SRAM XX1/X01 12 speed.

Apparently Silica makes their products in a building that I happen to pass by very often. Maybe I'll stop by some day and see if they'll talk to me.

I respect the crackhead home chemistry, but Silica's chainstripper & imitations of it seem like overkill.

Adding ~0.6 grams of NaOH to litter bottle of 70% isopropanol should get you to something workable and relatively safe, but I cannot stress enough how important it is to be careful with NaOH and how important it is to not increase the conc. much higher if you don't have chemistry knowledge & PPE.

 

[WaverlyCycles]

I think you're right. Some of the narrower chains have harder steel, which is part of why they cost so much. Thats why we need data. Which is lacking.

Yes, harder steel = higher tensile strength = stronger chains.

There is a lot more too it, though.

Friction makes a difference. This is a function of the mating surface area between the chain & drive-chain components; chain & drivetrain coatings; chain lubrication; chain contamination; and all of those kinds of things.

The chainline itself makes a difference (which can make it hard to compare chains designed for different drivechains).

Many, many, many independent variables.

___

I've been using Shimano's 11 speed linkglide chains w/ whatever lubricants I have laying around & without doing much to clean the drivechain after it gets wet or dirty. I do run narrow-wide cranks, though, which helps push dirt out.

No issues yet.

 

[pomah]

I have been running shimano linkglide chains, the basic 500 series and they last for more than 1000km on my BB02 setup, but I'm also running max 10A, 48V on it, so by no means extream load.

I commute to work and and where I need on this bike and I change my chains after around 1200km, I used to measure chain wear but after several years I have learned that I can just aswell tell it by the KM reading. The rear cassette rarely needs any change, I might change out the 11t and 13t rings once every summer when I do a complete tear down of the bike to clean everything.

For lubricant I have been using squirt that I apply 1 once every month or so, during winter when they use alot of salt on our roads I sometimes switch to some oilbased lubricant that has more corrosion resistantance but I might as well change the chain more often just because of the corrosion.

 

[Zambam]

I have been running shimano linkglide chains, the basic 500 series and they last for more than 1000km on my BB02 setup, but I'm also running max 10A, 48V on it, so by no means extream load.

I commute to work and and where I need on this bike and I change my chains after around 1200km, I used to measure chain wear but after several years I have learned that I can just aswell tell it by the KM reading. The rear cassette rarely needs any change, I might change out the 11t and 13t rings once every summer when I do a complete tear down of the bike to clean everything.

For lubricant I have been using squirt that I apply 1 once every month or so, during winter when they use alot of salt on our roads I sometimes switch to some oilbased lubricant that has more corrosion resistantance but I might as well change the chain more often just because of the corrosion.

1200 km (745 miles) and need a new chain? That's crazy low! What kind of bike is your BBS02 on?

Not familiar with Squirt. Just looked it up. It's wax in a water base. Have you tried hot wax which may lengthen chain life?


Not familiar with Linkglide either. Just watched this video. It says to get all the benefits, Linkglide must be used as a system, i.e. chain/cassette/chainring/derailleurs must all be Linkglide. Is that what you have?

 

[Zambam]

It works very well. It's an extremely concentrated concoction of 3 surfactants, 2 normal ones and a glcyol ether.
I managed to replicate it at home, in an unsafe manner, by mixing my highest concentration laundry detergent and adding some DOT3 brake fluid.

This is Silca's Super Secret Chain Stripper ingredients from their SDS. Did you replicate it from the SDS? What was unsafe about your mixture?

 

[Diggs]

The rear cassette rarely needs any change, I might change out the 11t and 13t rings

I go through a Shimano freewheel every year or so as my BBSHD wears out the 14t (smallest) sprocket. I've never tried to source or replace individual sprockets. Do others rebuild their freewheel/cassettes? (Is it a PIA?) Where do you get just the sprockets? I've looked and cannot find.

 

[BlueSwordM]

This is Silca's Super Secret Chain Stripper ingredients from their SDS. Did you replicate it from the SDS? What was unsafe about your mixture?
View attachment 375900

Yes. The dangerous part is just handling any glycol ethers in general.

I don't like playing with brake fluid for obvious reasons.

Anyway, I gave that detergent mixture to someone else since I just use heated water + powdered dishwashing detergent inside of an ultrasonic cleaner since that works extremely well for degreasing chains before waxing.

 

[Zambam]

Yes. The dangerous part is just handling any glycol ethers in general.

I don't like playing with brake fluid for obvious reasons.

Anyway, I gave that detergent mixture to someone else since I just use heated water + powdered dishwashing detergent inside of an ultrasonic cleaner since that works extremely well for degreasing chains before waxing.

I've been working with DOT-X brake fluid all my life. I didn't know it's a dangerous substance. I recall trying to burn it once with a paper wick and it would barely burn and self extinguished.

 

[biphaeboh]

Interesting but it's a hard sell for a mid drive when the main attraction is variable gearing :/

Possibly the thing to use with the last reduction stage on a RC drive though

Well you could have a mid drive with an internally geared hub like a Rohloff.

 

[Diggs]

My waxed chain has over 350 miles on it. I haven't touched it but now it's starting to skip under load on the highest gear (14t). It's still shifts smoothly and the chain is quiet. No doubt that 14t sprocket is worn but 350 miles would be too soon compared to my old ways.

@add - I use inexpensive KMC Z6 chains and should probably up the quality of chains I use but since I have a history of them it serves as a good comparison.

 

[n00b]

Compared to other speeds of chains?



I've never seen anyone measure this. I would guess that sprocket wear gets reduced somewhat, not sure by how much.

I say it's gotta help, but maybe have some spare chain and 2 master links and a chain tool with you.
If using a mid-drive. Ooo, ooo..I bet that BBS02 still works and it was the controller that fried.

 

[n00b]

My waxed chain has over 350 miles on it. I haven't touched it but now it's starting to skip under load on the highest gear (14t). It's still shifts smoothly and the chain is quiet. No doubt that 14t sprocket is worn but 350 miles would be too soon compared to my old ways.

@add - I use inexpensive KMC Z6 chains and should probably up the quality of chains I use but since I have a history of them it serves as a good comparison.

You run down to 14T on a mid drive?

 

[n00b]

I don't have enough miles on mid drives to give an opinion on that.
I've read many times hat 8 speed is stronger and imagine that more metal surface = better when we're talking about a powerful mid drive.

Besides if you have >=750w there isn't much use in having a lot of gears.

I popped 2 10-speed chains in a row without my fat ass even being on the bike, it was upside down.
It was with Shimano 10-speed chain and that Sunrace 10-speed cluster, the 2nd to biggest one.
I got a derailleur-extender, and it was all good until I flipped on the switch and twisted the throttle.
1st one popped at the pins, 2nd one popped the entire link in half. That's not strong stuff.
I'm thinking maybe those clusters aren't too good for doing that, either. I had 2 of those chains all waxed up.
Garbage now.

 

[n00b]

Apparently Silica makes their products in a building that I happen to pass by very often. Maybe I'll stop by some day and see if they'll talk to me.

I respect the crackhead home chemistry, but Silica's chainstripper & imitations of it seem like overkill.

Adding ~0.6 grams of NaOH to litter bottle of 70% isopropanol should get you to something workable and relatively safe, but I cannot stress enough how important it is to be careful with NaOH and how important it is to not increase the conc. much higher if you don't have chemistry knowledge & PPE.

Uhm..clean it with gas and a brush, then clean with 90% alcohol to get the gas off. The End.

 

[BlueSwordM]

I've been working with DOT-X brake fluid all my life. I didn't know it's a dangerous substance. I recall trying to burn it once with a paper wick and it would barely burn and self extinguished.

Oh, it's mainly dangerous if you ingest it

Anyway, I despise using non polar solvents because of difficult disposal.

I first started with mineral spirits + ethanol, then my special concoction, and in the end, hot water + powder dishwashing detergent (the pods are better than the powder, but powder is far far cheaper) worked the best.

 

[BlueSwordM]

After that, I just mixed 10% microcrystalline wax + 90% fully refined paraffin wax, added 1% WS2 and I've been happy ever since.

I've been wanting to add some LDPE wax to make the wax harder and tougher at the same time, but that'll wait until I've finished my current group buy.

 

[n00b]

I guess I'm a "Wolfblood Racing" man. LOL!

It makes it slick.

 

[Zambam]

For lubricant I have been using squirt that I apply 1 once every month or so, during winter when they use alot of salt on our roads I sometimes switch to some oilbased lubricant that has more corrosion resistantance but I might as well change the chain more often just because of the corrosion.

I didn't think oil lube is compatible with wax. Just came across this confirmation:
"The most important thing to remember is that wax and lubes do not mix. Applying a wet lube on top of a waxed chain will give you the worst of both worlds: A sticky mess that attracts dirt and causes high friction and chain wear. Just avoid it."
Source: I Bought A Pre-Waxed Chain. What Now?.

 

[n00b]

I didn't think oil lube is compatible with wax. Just came across this confirmation:
"The most important thing to remember is that wax and lubes do not mix. Applying a wet lube on top of a waxed chain will give you the worst of both worlds: A sticky mess that attracts dirt and causes high friction and chain wear. Just avoid it."
Source: I Bought A Pre-Waxed Chain. What Now?.

As for the waxing and longevity of it and all that? I can go run finger across my chains right now and they're pretty clean and slick still. All of them. I'd say it works. Might give ya a 2% boost or something.
I did it like the Wolfblood guys said to do. It's not nice if you try to put it together without yur chainholder and just try to do it
real quick, it's slippery. Melt candles in mini-Crock Pot, add PTFE additive (I added a little extra liquid PTFE I had)
dunk chain, get air out, pull, dry, and store. I used old white dinner candles.
Tbh, I'd recommend waxing all kinds of chains like that. Motorcycle, chainsaw, industrial, all of them.
It's the best way, IMO. It really is. Maybe not chainsaw, RPM might be too high.