Ohio race bike.....controllers...I hate them all!

[Thud]

Good evening,
You all prolly know about the upcoming motored bike meet & race coming up June 5th in Ohio. I am going to represent the ES crowd with another quick & dirty build. I originaly intended to ride my long tail Tidalforce bike....but the racer in me kept making me want to chop something up & make a real go fast-turn left bike.
I have been struggling to make time to build it. I started it on may 6th. tonight I made the call to for go anymore cosmetics & get the thing rolling in time to actually ride it before loading up for Ohio.
The main donor bike is a 24" girls Mnt. bike. I have a couple set up options with a 26" front wheel.
Here is a couple pics of the progress.
Its a mix of boardtracker-speedway bike. Eventualy it will be a 1000watt road racer.

pre-chop: 24" front 20" rear. Yes the chop shop is allways that cluttered.

widen the rear end for some serious tires:

whack aprart all the pcs to fit your imagination:

add some gusseting to keep it altogether bouncing along sidways at 40+

Add a motor to it some where:

Drill some holes in it to get AJ's respect:

Slap some paint on it to keep the rust down:

test fit the battery box:

Now I am waiting for a new bmx gooseneck, more handle bars & another rear tire from Niagra cycle works.

I totaly smoked my Castle creations Speed controller last sunday on the bmx bike. I have lost all faith in rc controllers for hard riding. (edit: turns out i did NOT blow the CC ice85...it was a thrown magnet that severed a phase wire & set off the fireworks)I am fitting halls to that turnigy & will spin it with 18s3p lipo. I am anxious to really see if the infineons are rpm limited to 6000 ish rpm's. That will throw my gearing calculations out the window. Back up is a turnigy 200amp monster fitted with an EVlogix throtlizer.
On another note the oil pump in my truck is in fact dead. So I am borowing a ride to the race & a generator to charge with. I know Bigmoose is attending(spectating)but I would like to meet any sphere ite's in the area. I know it will be a good time.

 

[katou]

My car is dead, so I'm out of the running for attending. It would be a bit of a drive, but if the car was good to go...

What happened to your RC controller? I am planning one for my build, and it was one of the parts I was more confident of...

The work looks solid so far. You're running one reduction directly to the left side correct?

Katou

 

[vanilla ice]

Awesome.

 

[liveforphysics]

The infinion will spin a motor with 14magnets and 12poles to 10,000rpm.

Beautiful job on the bike! I wish I could be there for the race!

 

[amberwolf]

Nifty--don't see too many brazed frames nowadays, especially in homebrew bikes.

I like your garage/shop, but it doesn't have enough stuff, and there is too much empty space. :lol:

 

[Thud]

katou:
it was the smaller ICE100 & i was totaly abusing it on the neigbors MX track (I have a little video but it really s u c ks)
I have allways peaked above the rated current for that controller & I finaly smoked it. added caps & all.
I am hoping the throtlizer with AMP limiting programability will make the units more applicable. Even then I will be pushing the units to thier amps limits regularly. So not very confident regarding the tiny RC FETS. (I see a Lyen's 18fet in the very near future).

Luke:
Thanks, that is good news. I have contradicting info from Lyen regarding the rc motors. & another RC proponent told me I would only get 5000 rpms from them. I will post a video & settle the issue for all times sake this weekend.

Amberwolf:
you see why I don't have your Jack shaft assembly complete now . The frame is TIG welded at all the joints & the box gussets are Brazed. Working on getting more stuff in the garage every day :lol: (hoping to have a bon-fire tonight to get rid of a bunch of wood scrap thats been piling up.)

Thanks guys.

 

[liveforphysics]

Luke:
Thanks, that is good news. I have contradicting info from Lyen regarding the rc motors. & another RC proponent told me I would only get 5000 rpms from them. I will post a video & settle the issue for all times sake this weekend.

I think the reason for all the different experiences could be the half-dozen+ different versions of the controller we all call "infinion." When you test yours, make sure to let us all know exactly what model of chip with what firmware you're using.

 

[dnmun]

oil pumps are usually easy to reach if you can get the pan off. they usually are driven off the distributor for old style american trucks, and off the crank on newer and japanese designs.

if you can take off the distributor and spin the oil pump drive shaft from the top, you could determine if the pump is actually bad without removing the pan, but just inspection of the distributor/oil pump driveshaft connection may clue you in first. BOL

 

[Thud]

Thx dnmun,
its a 98 ranger 3.0 (no distributer) can't get the oil pan off with engine installed. (though clymer says you can) tryed it & lost a 5 hour battle....need to pull the motor. I am a state certified mechanic BTW. (Big deal! I hate working on cars!)
I tried a new sender & then a manual pressure gage...no oil presure to speak of. Another thing on the "to do" list.

As much as I hate wrenching on cars & trucks... I hate even more to pay a guy $800 bucks for something I can do in a day or so.

 

[dnmun]

i hear you. my ford is too close to the crossmember too. i had a leaking pan that blew oil out like this blowout well.

to get clearance on my 75 ford, i had to jack the motor up in the air while still tied through the trannie at the back end mount (but loose), after taking off the motor mount bracket bolts. all to replace a pan gasket.

 

[Thud]

I had the motor jacked against the firewall & still need another 2" to pull the pan..... I miss my 77 ford with the straight 6 300. Reliable as a hammer..to bad the rest of the truck rusted away.

 

[recumpence]

That would be really cool if the Infineons can run that high speed! I am the one who gave the info on the low RPM available with sensored controllers. That came from research on my end regarding a couple prototype motors I have sitting on my bench.

If the Infineons are truely up to the task of 80,000 electric RPM, we should have the perfect setup with the RC motors and Infineon controllers!

The bike looks really good Thud. I am impressed how quickly you can throw something together with such quality.

Matt

 

[amberwolf]

It's unlikely to fit, but if you want the oilpump off my '85 Ford LTD, it's yours. It's driven off the serpentine, IIRC, and is a separate unit like the alternators/etc. I only looked at it glancingly to see if it might be useful pumping other liquids, or for pumping oil in a solar heating/etc array; so I don't know much about it.

 

[enoob]

oil pump shmoil pump

zmax or duralube .

seen them comercials ? dont even need oil .

drive it down there and leave it there . fly home on the purse money.


good on ya thud . make em wish they knew how to build electric brother

 

[GGoodrum]

Very cool. Now I know what you need the LVC/HVC, BM Booster and CC kits for. These went out today, btw, so you should have them early next week.

-- Gary

 

[tritonwow]

Lookin good! I was wondering what advantage if any a locking crank would be? To keep the right pedal down in position while racing but unlocks when necessary

 

[AussieJester]

Nice work Thudster, but why oh why are you making a 1000watt bike
out of it eventually!?!@??$!?! Thats just, just, just ludicrous mate
you could run faster limited to 1000watt than the bike will go haha
1000watts on a race track is a joke need to add more zeros not take em away 10 000watt
should be your goal buddy

KiM

p.s nice lightening holes but you already had my respect

 

[Thud]

Relax Kim,
It will only be 1000w when I line up against Safe & the rest of the crew (should there be enough to make a race of it) Technicly,dogman's bike was a leagal 1000w racer.
I been working all day on making a hall sensored motor to race with
Finaly figured it out!

FOR THE RECORD: THE 6fet E-crazy man controller will spin a 14 poll outrunner to the its kv limits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cuhzX0cTiw
[youtube]-cuhzX0cTiw[/youtube]

 

[swbluto]

Relax Kim,
It will only be 1000w when I line up against Safe & the rest of the crew (should there be enough to make a race of it) Technicly,dogman's bike was a leagal 1000w racer.
I been working all day on making a hall sensored motor to race with
Finaly figured it out!

FOR THE RECORD: THE 6fet E-crazy man controller will spin a 14 poll outrunner to the its kv limits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cuhzX0cTiw

Was that ~8300 RPM? So it seems the infineon is capable of at least 120,000 electrical RPM. Neat!

 

[liveforphysics]

Thank you for that kick-ass video Thud! You da man!

If your controller is capable of more voltage, step up that input voltage, re-check the RPM, and keep stepping it up until the controller starts to hicup. I know my 18fet units can reach 10,000rpm, but I couldn't step above 100v on my controllers, and the KV was too low to find the limits.

I also must say, going from 48v (when I was on RC controllers) to 100v made the motors feel insanely better. The torque just seems to never drop off with the 100v setup vs the 48v setup. Pump that voltage if you're able!

 

[Thud]

Thanks Luke,

Question for you & your controller think tank:
How far can I push a 6 fet controller once modded with some decent 4110's & a monster heat sink added to the bank?
Does radio shack sell Kaptan tape?

You know my riding style. It is purly a race set up. (no "partial" throttle here, ON the throtle or ON the brakes) I would like to be able to pull 100 amps consitintly from an 18c lipo set up. (idealy I would like 300amps 8) ) but we'll keep it real for now.

Lyen, if your reading this, get ready for another paypal from me......

& for future referance to all you RC wannabe's...Don't bother with a 200amp "monster" turnigy You will only be disapionted & ultimatly frustraighted.
I spun the motor in the video with it on 2 different set ups (it actually turned the motor about 700rpm faster) no problems. After getting the camera out & re-hooking up...nothin'... it is totaly dead. Never got hot, no smoke, never lost sync, just stoped working.

 

[AussieJester]

T
& for future referance to all you RC wannabe's...Don't bother with a 200amp "monster" turnigy You will only be disapionted & ultimatly frustraighted.

I believe Burtie had similar disappointment with the monster Turnigy ESC also. Glad i spent the $$ and went with Castle thinking of buying the new CC HV160.

KiM

 

[liveforphysics]

Totally agree. The 200amp monster is a joke for an EV. Evidently it holds up fine driving a prop on a plane, but it did nothing but lighten my wallet in an EV application.


You've gotta change a couple resistors in the low current voltage regulation part of the board to run 100v, and also swap out any of the caps that happen to be sub 100v on the board after you swap in the 4010's.

I've got plenty kapton tape I can send ASAP if you can't source any locally, just PM me.

As far at the current handling goes, it's very tough to say. On a big high turn-count hubmotor like a 5305 or something, I bet it could handle as high as 50-70amp battery current at 100v in a racing appliction that never involved starting from a stop more than once.

For an RC motor though, the winding resistance is so much lower, the controller ends up doing a lot more phase current multiplication as it trys to current limit to regulate battery current (the current it measures through the shunt). This means phase currents can easily be 3-4x above the current being drawn from the battery. This is great for performance, but very hard on the controllers FETs, as the load they see is the phase current rather than the battery current. On the bright side, once the motor is spinning and at speed, the BEMF helps out a ton with avoiding the phase current multiplication, so for a racing application it may be easier on the FET stage than an around town appliction. I would start out trying only 40amps at the battery at 100v, carefully moniter temps, and if it handles that ok, then glob on some more solder across the shunt to step it up a bit, but keep in mind when you're starting from a stop, that 40amps at the battery is going to be more like 160amp loading across the poor FETs.

 

[gwhy!]

Thanks Luke,

Question for you & your controller think tank:
How far can I push a 6 fet controller once modded with some decent 4110's & a monster heat sink added to the bank?
Does radio shack sell Kaptan tape?

You know my riding style. It is purly a race set up. (no "partial" throttle here, ON the throtle or ON the brakes) I would like to be able to pull 100 amps consitintly from an 18c lipo set up. (idealy I would like 300amps 8) ) but we'll keep it real for now.

Lyen, if your reading this, get ready for another paypal from me......

& for future referance to all you RC wannabe's...Don't bother with a 200amp "monster" turnigy You will only be disapionted & ultimatly frustraighted.
I spun the motor in the video with it on 2 different set ups (it actually turned the motor about 700rpm faster) no problems. After getting the camera out & re-hooking up...nothin'... it is totaly dead. Never got hot, no smoke, never lost sync, just stoped working.

Thud,
Im liking what you are doing , The baby 6 fet that I have seems to handle 100A in burst ok ( I havent been brave enough to continue pushing because it just feels like some thing is gonna brake and I dont mean with the controller :wink: ) I think the real problem is the phase wire contact to the pcb is very small . It made a massive difference when I re-housed the controller into a slightly bigger box and added more heat sink it just seems not to get hot no matter how hard I push it. I have 120A 75v FETS in mine i Think the 4110' are 100A 100v .. I think the 6 fet controllers when modded with better fets and make good connections to the pcb for phase and power leads and also pay very good attention to cooling I think these little baby's are capable of far more than 100A continuous. Im not sure if you will have the sort of problems that a couple of peeps were having with these controllers ( cutting out when winding the power on ) If you do Dont worry it is very easy to over come .

 

[Thud]

Thanks for the input guy's.

Gwhy, I had the EXACT issues with this controller you fellows addresed in the "cutting out thread" I owe you guys HUGE props for helping a hack like me understand what to do. I will give you guys full credit when I am rich & famous :lol:
Thanks again.

I still had a couple snags getting the parameter designer working but that is working well now. & I have added a programing cable to the controller

That said I am going into the lab right now & change out the FET's to some 4110's I bought from methods & up the caps to the 100v low esr rated ones (again,thanks methods)
I will prolly adjust the voltage for 72v (18c) for now..I need more lipo before heading into the deep dark 100V woods.

I will prolly order Lyen's 18 fet unit later today....just to have a unit on hand. Experiance tells me anything that can break..Will break....& at the least oportune moment.

Aussie J. The castle controllers are the BEST money can buy. I really smoked my 100 amp unit, but to be fair I was really jamming on it when it went. Corner to corner acceleration testing with no kind of amp limiting. It lost sync for a split second Then screeched a death song of sparky smoke plume's. I put 20 miles on it that mornig riding it to a friends house & back. it neverhad a problem if I drove it "granny" style to conserve battery power.
I had hope a throtlizer & that turnigy would be a match made in heaven....aparently the Monster has no faith.

fireing up the soldering station now......back later..