Ohio race bike.....controllers...I hate them all!

[Thud]

Cool,
After reading that it becomes clear.(duh!) Thanks gwhy.
I really am an eletronic duffass sometimes.

 

[johnrobholmes]

My question is whether the 18fet (or any of the zei chang) controllers will actually allow high current flows. The boards are relatively puny and not designed to minimize inductance or maximize switching speed. Even the power wires enter and exit with an extra 8" of wire inside the controller. Sure, the fets may be able to take a lot of power, but can the rest of the controller?

Certainly, I do think they are great controllers and do a great job (especially for the price). I just have more questions than answers about them :lol:

 

[Thud]

I hope to have those questions all answered before the weekend is out.
see if they perform to my expectations (think at least 80cc motocross racer performance levels). that should be some gigles on a bicycle platform.

 

[liveforphysics]

My question is whether the 18fet (or any of the zei chang) controllers will actually allow high current flows. The boards are relatively puny and not designed to minimize inductance or maximize switching speed. Even the power wires enter and exit with an extra 8" of wire inside the controller. Sure, the fets may be able to take a lot of power, but can the rest of the controller?

Certainly, I do think they are great controllers and do a great job (especially for the price). I just have more questions than answers about them :lol:

Maybe you've skipped the controller building threads, but this is why it's common to lay passes of 8awg-10awg, or even solid copper bus-bars over the high-current traces. Since all the FETs are off on 1 side, it actually makes it very easy to make it extremely beefy. Your typical Methods controller build has more weight just in added copper and solder to the power and phase buses than the entire weight of a typical RC controller. lol

 

[gwhy!]

I have no doubt that these controllers can handle much much more than even methods 100A 100v controller. If my little 6fet can handle 100A ( im soon going to be testing hopefully not to destruction one of my 6fets upto 120-140A for R&D purposes with the big motor that I have ) im sure that a 18fet can handle much more but I do think it may require different fets to be used.

 

[johnrobholmes]

I have followed the mod threads, and just haven't gotten the chance to really wring them out myself or put a modded controller on a bench test. I have only gotten the chance to push around 5000w through them so far, school kinda put my "fun" time on damper for a bit.

 

[deVries]

I have no doubt that these controllers can handle much much more than even methods 100A 100v controller. If my little 6fet can handle 100A ( im soon going to be testing hopefully not to destruction one of my 6fets upto 120-140A for R&D purposes with the big motor that I have ) im sure that a 18fet can handle much more but I do think it may require different fets to be used.

Hi Gwhy,

This is good news that you can get a 6fet to handle 100A. Because 18 FET 84-132V Infineon Programmable Brushless Controllers with high voltage IRFB4115 MOSFETs are BIG and cost $259ea. from L.

Is it possible and reasonable to mod a 6fet to do 48v nominal and 75A continuous for 2-4 minutes without overheating? Also, need to get the motor up to 9,000rpm. 14 magnet -not sure if this is the same as how many poles the motor has???

How much approximately are the supplies to mod the 6fet and to add the hall sensors to an outrunner similar to yours? Just trying to get a total cost picture before diving in.

Cheers,
Thanks!

 

[liveforphysics]

I have no doubt that these controllers can handle much much more than even methods 100A 100v controller. If my little 6fet can handle 100A ( im soon going to be testing hopefully not to destruction one of my 6fets upto 120-140A for R&D purposes with the big motor that I have ) im sure that a 18fet can handle much more but I do think it may require different fets to be used.

Remember my friend, the FETs only feel the phase current.
For example, a 50v setup with a 50amp limit may be peaking 150amps (an example).

Cranking up the voltage to 100v, with the same 50amp battery limit would place the phase peaks in the 300amp+ range.

Or, if you have a pair of controllers, both drawing the same 50amp from the battery, but one is terminated in wye and the other in delta, the FETs in the delta motor will be having 1.7x higher phase currents.

Or, if they are both set to pull 50amps from the battery, and one is powering an x5304 and one is powering an x5302, the x5302 setup will have twice the phase currents (and hence twice the fet loading).


What I'm getting at, is a controller may work fantastic for one person at 50v and 100amps or even 150amps, and get utterly exploded by somebody using the same controller at 130v, and only drawing 50amps or less.


Keep in mind, these 4115 controllers for 150v are only capable of about half the phase current of a controller with the same number of FETs made from 4110's. And yet the higher voltage is going to mean it's getting a lot more phase current multiplication... If you try to power a low resistance motor with it, you're going to be looking phase currents at >4-5x battery currents, and the fets ONLY feel phase currents, so it doesn't matter if your amp meter is only showing 50amps, your FETs may be under 250amp stress.

If you're going to run the very high voltage setups, you MUST choose wisely to match the motor to the controller voltage, or there will be a lot of people with sad faces wishing the magic smoke was back inside there controllers.

 

[gwhy!]

Hi Gwhy,

This is good news that you can get a 6fet to handle 100A. Because 18 FET 84-132V Infineon Programmable Brushless Controllers with high voltage IRFB4115 MOSFETs are BIG and cost $259ea. from L.

Is it possible and reasonable to mod a 6fet to do 48v nominal and 75A continuous for 2-4 minutes without overheating? Also, need to get the motor up to 9,000rpm. 14 magnet -not sure if this is the same as how many poles the motor has???

How much approximately are the supplies to mod the 6fet and to add the hall sensors to an outrunner similar to yours? Just trying to get a total cost picture before diving in.

Cheers,
Thanks!

My 6 fet is limited to 70A now (but have run it with 100A limit ), running on 44-50v and copes with this very well ( dont get even warm), but I have not pulled this current for more than 20secs. If you want it for 2-4 mins then I would reconsider re-gearing your setup. The motor Im using also has 14 magents . The total cost for the controller mod was around £30, this was for the fets ( not 4110's ) and for a different box and heat sink, the cost of the halls were £10 plus a bit of jiggery pokery to mount them.

Remember my friend, the FETs only feel the phase current.
For example, a 50v setup with a 50amp limit may be peaking 150amps (an example).

Cranking up the voltage to 100v, with the same 50amp battery limit would place the phase peaks in the 300amp+ range.

Or, if you have a pair of controllers, both drawing the same 50amp from the battery, but one is terminated in wye and the other in delta, the FETs in the delta motor will be having 1.7x higher phase currents.

Or, if they are both set to pull 50amps from the battery, and one is powering an x5304 and one is powering an x5302, the x5302 setup will have twice the phase currents (and hence twice the fet loading).


What I'm getting at, is a controller may work fantastic for one person at 50v and 100amps or even 150amps, and get utterly exploded by somebody using the same controller at 130v, and only drawing 50amps or less.


Keep in mind, these 4115 controllers for 150v are only capable of about half the phase current of a controller with the same number of FETs made from 4110's. And yet the higher voltage is going to mean it's getting a lot more phase current multiplication... If you try to power a low resistance motor with it, you're going to be looking phase currents at >4-5x battery currents, and the fets ONLY feel phase currents, so it doesn't matter if your amp meter is only showing 50amps, your FETs may be under 250amp stress.

If you're going to run the very high voltage setups, you MUST choose wisely to match the motor to the controller voltage, or there will be a lot of people with sad faces wishing the magic smoke was back inside there controllers.

I totally agree Luke, and a lot of peeps get carried away with the whole very high current high voltage options of controllers ( It would be nice if someone could come up with a one size fits all controller ). The fets Im using are rated @75v and should be able to handle the phase currents that my motor is sucking ( on paper anyway ) but I know that the rpm/resistance of the motor will play a part in what phase currents these fets are seeing also, so running my motor on a slightly higher voltage may topple the balance between , this is amazing to shit what went wrong with just a 20% voltage increase.

 

[deVries]

My 6 fet is limited to 70A now (but have run it with 100A limit ), running on 44-50v and copes with this very well ( dont get even warm), but I have not pulled this current for more than 20secs. If you want it for 2-4 mins then I would reconsider re-gearing your setup. The motor Im using also has 14 magents . The total cost for the controller mod was around £30, this was for the fets ( not 4110's ) and for a different box and heat sink, the cost of the halls were £10 plus a bit of jiggery pokery to mount them.

Does 14 mags = 14 poles? One has to divide the rated controller's electrical speed by the number of poles to determine whether the controller can do the rpm one needs. Will your controller do 9,000rpm with a 14 pole motor?

Yes, I agree, the 2-4 min at 75A is overkill but maybe up to 45-60 seconds instead but typically only 15-30 seconds on demand? (Bursts of 85A for less than 30 seconds are what the motors are rated for, but that is in an rc-airplane air-cooled application.)

So, do I need a high-rpm (high electrical speed) 6fet controller that can do 9,000rpm? How do I "spec" that? I have read some controllers have issues at these higher rpm requirements.

Keep in mind, these 4115 controllers for 150v are only capable of about half the phase current of a controller with the same number of FETs made from 4110's. And yet the higher voltage is going to mean it's getting a lot more phase current multiplication... If you try to power a low resistance motor with it, you're going to be looking phase currents at >4-5x battery currents, and the fets ONLY feel phase currents, so it doesn't matter if your amp meter is only showing 50amps, your FETs may be under 250amp stress.

If you're going to run the very high voltage setups, you MUST choose wisely to match the motor to the controller voltage, or there will be a lot of people with sad faces wishing the magic smoke was back inside there controllers.

Since the phase currents are what the motor gets, would it be better to run the lower resistance Outrunner at higher voltage but lower amps for stop to start-up and acceleration purposes (to 30mph) AND maybe keep the heat build-up lower in the motor or elsewhere? (vs lower voltage & higher amps) This is using a modded XieChang controller with hall sensors on the Outrunner, or is higher voltage only going to help out at the top end after start-up and acceleration PAST 25mph?

Thanks! 8)

 

[liveforphysics]

Since the phase currents are what the motor gets, would it be better to run the lower resistance Outrunner at higher voltage but lower amps for stop to start-up and acceleration purposes (to 30mph) AND maybe keep the heat build-up lower in the motor or elsewhere? (vs lower voltage & higher amps)

This would exactly be the huge misconception between people only observing battery current, and thinking it relates to the phase current.

If you're looking to accelerate with 1000w of energy, so you set your battery current limits so it makes 1000w of power getting drawn by the controller, the phase currents are going to be the same at the motor and the FETs for the same RPM point, and it doesn't matter if you're running 1amp of battery current at 1,000v, 10amps of battery current at 100v, or 100amps of battery current at 10v. If the motor is at the same RPM, and you're dumping 1000w into it, the only difference will be the PWM cycle the FETs get to use. If the 1000v system is at 1% duty cycle to battery limit to 1amp, then 100v setup at 10% duty cycle, and the 10v setup is at 100% duty cycle, and all 3 of the controllers end up sending the exact same 10v 100amp phase current to the motor, the difference is the 10v setup can use FETs that generate roughly 100x less heat for the same current level, meaning in this situation it operates about 100x cooler. But the 1000v setup of course has the advantage of 100x the potential RPM range of the motor...

This is why it's really foolish to pick voltages higher than the motor will be spinning, because you just end up making a ton more controller heat (from the higher resistances of higher voltage rated FETs) while the motor sees the exact same phase current levels, which are POWER dependent, and not something to be based off of battery current at all.

I guess to make things really simple, if you want to double your voltage, did you also want to double your RPM? If not, then you going to end up with a much more robust setup by choosing a controller with FETs rated for the lowest voltage that meets your motors speed requirements.

Even just the 75v FETs look way way better from a performance standpoint than the 100v FETs, and then the 150v FETs really start looking sad (until you scale up the package size to giant things like TO-264).

For a given package size, like TO-220 (what 99.9% of all ebike controllers use because it's ultra cheap), a 6-FET controller built using 50V rated FETs can easily be able to match or handle higher currents than a 18-FET controller built with 150v FETs. If you step-up the motor wind count to match the voltage so you only need 1/3rd of the phase current to produce the same torque, then the high voltage controller makes sense, like an X5306 could run 150v and have the performance match an x5302 running 50v (as an example).

This is why it's so critical to match the motor to the voltage. With these RC motors with super low winding resistance... it takes some serious controller current handling abilities if you want to run them past 100v, or hell, even past 75v.

Another quick example, you could take 2 different 3220 astro motors, one of them a 6 turn, one of them a 2 turn, and run them both off the same 50v pack limited to say 100amps. The controller on the 6-turn might be happy and run nice and cool forever pulling 100 battery amps feeding the 6-turn, while the same controller with the same 50v and same 100amps going into it could be shooting out plasma and magic-smoke, even though it's battery current and voltage going into it is identical, it's phase currents (and hence the load the FETs see) was triple that of the other controller running the 6-turn.


Best Wishes,
-Luke

 

[gwhy!]

Does 14 mags = 14 poles? One has to divide the rated controller's electrical speed by the number of poles to determine whether the controller can do the rpm one needs. Will your controller do 9,000rpm with a 14 pole motor?

Yes, I agree, the 2-4 min at 75A is overkill but maybe up to 45-60 seconds instead but typically only 15-30 seconds on demand? (Bursts of 85A for less than 30 seconds are what the motors are rated for, but that is in an rc-airplane air-cooled application.)

So, do I need a high-rpm (high electrical speed) 6fet controller that can do 9,000rpm? How do I "spec" that? I have read some controllers have issues at these higher rpm requirements.

I have run my motor at 60v with my controller which works out @ 10200 rpm yes it works but I haven't run this for any great length of time with a 70A limit so cant say for sure if it will be ok in the long term. my bike for normal road use only sees 70A for around 1-2 sec when accelerating hard and this pushes my upto 25-27mph. So I think to reach 30mph should not be to much more ( my bike weighs around 20kg ).

 

[deVries]

This is why it's so critical to match the motor to the voltage. With these RC motors with super low winding resistance... it takes some serious controller current handling abilities if you want to run them past 100v, or hell, even past 75v.

Another quick example, you could take 2 different 3220 astro motors, one of them a 6 turn, one of them a 2 turn, and run them both off the same 50v pack limited to say 100amps. The controller on the 6-turn might be happy and run nice and cool forever pulling 100 battery amps feeding the 6-turn, while the same controller with the same 50v and same 100amps going into it could be shooting out plasma and magic-smoke, even though it's battery current and voltage going into it is identical, it's phase currents (and hence the load the FETs see) was triple that of the other controller running the 6-turn.

Thanks Luke for taking the time to connect the dots for me to begin understanding, rather than what was becoming a conundrum of misunderstanding. :lol:

So, for example, a 24 turn motor will put a lot less (1/2) phase current/load on the fets than a 12 turn motor, and it's a simple ratio in your example to figure out... 6T vs 2T is triple the load on the fets for the 2T.
8)

I have run my motor at 60v with my controller which works out @ 10200 rpm yes it works but I haven't run this for any great length of time with a 70A limit so cant say for sure if it will be ok in the long term. my bike for normal road use only sees 70A for around 1-2 sec when accelerating hard and this pushes my upto 25-27mph. So I think to reach 30mph should not be to much more ( my bike weighs around 20kg ).

What voltage do you need to reach 27mph?

Someone told me to get a good estimate is to pad your voltage about 20% over the no load rpm to get a good voltage estimate for mph on the flats under load. Does this make sense or do I need to use a different calculation/percentage?

Thanks,
Cheers!

 

[gwhy!]

What voltage do you need to reach 27mph?

Someone told me to get a good estimate is to pad your voltage about 20% over the no load rpm to get a good voltage estimate for mph on the flats under load. Does this make sense or do I need to use a different calculation/percentage?

Thanks,
Cheers!

hot off the charger 50v. I think it really depends on the gearing to what percentage is best to use, I did not use any correction factor and I think its about 1-2 mph less than on paper but my gearing is very low so there is very little load on the motor I think from memory my gearing is around 24:1 running a 26" wheel with a 170kv motor. It seems the taller the gearing the more % of speed you loose. I don't know if this is true for all setups , I was never trying to gear my bike for a set speed I just wanted to gear the bike as low as possible with just 2 stages that also did not cause any clearance issues with the chain line.

 

[swbluto]

Battery current does relate to phase current because, as you say, phase current relates to power and lower battery current with the same voltage in consideration IS lower power.

If you don't believe me, go to http://ebikes.ca/simulator and use the "custom option". Choose whatever motor you like, and plug in two different battery current limits. Look at the motor torque, and understand that's just a constant multiple of the phase current. You'll notice that a lower battery current results in lower torque, i.e., lower phase current. Why? Lower power, as has been said. So, yes, they are related.

Higher voltage and a lower battery current, though, isn't necessarily better for the controller. Lower voltages will result in lower controller heat.

 

[liveforphysics]

Not related/relateable between setups...

Battery current does relate to phase current because, as you say, phase current relates to power and lower battery current with the same voltage in consideration IS lower power.

If you don't believe me, go to http://ebikes.ca/simulator and use the "custom option". Choose whatever motor you like, and plug in two different battery current limits. Look at the motor torque, and understand that's just a constant multiple of the phase current. You'll notice that a lower battery current results in lower torque, i.e., lower phase current. Why? Lower power, as has been said. So, yes, they are related.

Higher voltage and a lower battery current, though, isn't necessarily better for the controller. Lower voltages will result in lower controller heat.

 

[Thud]

Well spherites,
Another night of utter frustration. I got into Lyen's 18 fet controller & modded 2 of the shunts in order to get a little performance out of it. couple laps up & down the drive & it seemed like it was going to do well on 72v. Controller was a warm to the touch....I took off on a speed run up the road & it was pulling better than before but not to my expectations yet.......then nothing.....I would show photos of the blown FET's but my F'n camera wont download for some reason tonight. (an electrial hat trick!)Total "On" time for the controller,45 seconds. the speedo was reading 29mph when the coasting started.

I am ready to take all this E-bike BS & throw it into lake michigan. I have exausted my e-bike budget trying to get a little performance out of them. (remember I am an "A" class vet motocrosser)

Are my expectations too high?

Do I need to put the Marrs motor/AXE controller on a frame to make something last more than a few hundred meters? (to friggin heavy)
right now my rc controllers are proving to be more reliable under the strain I put on them than the infineon units. That is counter-intuitive.

Luke, bigmoose, if you guy's are any where near getting a controller built that will survive the type of riding I am talking about-(true race application) I would love to try it out. right now I am tempted to pick up another HV160 & get some damm riding in. I am tired of soldering blown fet's

I was so angry I orderd a rebuild kit from race tech for the shock on my 89 CR125 training bike....& I picked up a morini S5GS engine last weekend....I will be at the death race next spring...I just question whether it will be on an E-bike right now. I am realy heart broken.

 

[recumpence]

Man, I feel your pain! This is the whole reason I am looking at other options. My new motor will be tested mostly on the reliable Kelly controllers.

Anyway, I know how you feel.

Funny thing, though, if these things are setup right, they run and run and run. My PK Ripper still has the same two HV110s I built it with and it is running fine without any problems after 2,000 miles and that thing is beat to death always!

Matt

 

[swbluto]

Funny thing, though, if these things are setup right, they run and run and run. My PK Ripper still has the same two HV110s I built it with and it is running fine without any problems after 2,000 miles and that thing is beat to death always!

Matt

The common denominator among builds with Castle ESCs that survive seems to be "Geared tall".

 

[Thud]

Hey Matt,
Thanks for the condolances. I am more convinced now I need to use gearing to keep the motor spinning in a happy place/sweet spot. I have really over peaked my Ice 100 & it keeps coming back for more. It will launch in high gear but I can make it lose sync that way. I have the 160 on the bmx right now & it is a brute. I Have destroyed all my 50mm turnigys with it. (loose magnets cutting phase wires) when they get really hot. And its a handfull with the 63/64-250kv on it. (the only reliable set up I have is the 1st build ironicly)

I was goofing off at lunch today & drew up a new tranny. It is a 3 speed with the top two ratios farily close to keep the motor spinning full speed at cornering speeds & a top end gear to streach the speed range. I am of the opinion that this may be the only way to realize my expectations when it come to electric Bicycles.

Little did I know i was prophitising the death of my 18fet controller!

 

[Thud]

I think you have that backwards S.

I think the PK ripper is sharing the load between 2 controllers. So it may be geared "tall" by single motor standards but really they are under less strain collectivly.

I Have an Ice 100 I have really though I killed on 2 occasions....yet it still works..My experiance is the controllers perfer to be geard as lightly as possible. wheel standing tourque & never a sync issue....loaded down is where the sync gremlin's apeare & play havock on the set up.

 

[AussieJester]

I am ready to take all this E-bike BS & throw it into lake michigan. I have exausted my e-bike budget trying to get a little performance out of them. (remember I am an "A" class vet motocrosser)

I know that exact feeling Thud i usually get at about 5-10 minutes after turning on a soldering iron, take a break for a day or two don't even look at the bike/electronics then attack it again when fresh.

I am tempted to pick up another HV160 & get some damm riding in. I am tired of soldering blown fet's

I am about half a toasted cheese tomato and oinin sanga away from connecting the throttle wires up for my new HV160 Thudster
i shall give it a test and shoot some footage

I was so angry I orderd a rebuild kit from race tech for the shock on my 89 CR125 training bike....& I picked up a morini S5GS engine last weekend....I will be at the death race next spring...I just question whether it will be on an E-bike right now. I am realy heart broken.

You on a lightweight bike with 9hp Morini VIDEO PLEASE!!!!!!! You will end up taking an ICE and a lecky i think buddy can practise on the ICE when the packs are charging maybeee?

I hope things get better for you soon Thud please stick with it your work is inspirational we need people like you to
remain in this hobby if we are going to see advancements.

KiM

 

[Thud]

Thanks for the encouragment AJ,

Aparently I am not totaly jinxed by the electronic gods.(my camera decided to cooperate after a world class cussing out )
here is a pic of the damage. you can't see it but one of the legs is burned completely through:

here is my shunt mod just 2 of the 4 jumperd about 75% with copper wire:

I cant tell if the board is damaged beyond repair.....I wonder if it is still under warrenty? LOL!!!!
Ohhh Lyyyyeen....(don't worry Lyen, I know I am asking a LOT out of these frock controllers)

This is my official request for controller sponcer ship. If you can build a controller that will survive 25 minutes with me in the saddle....you will have a saleable product.
I will provide all the video footage for validation & make myself available for promotional events & the usual PR funtions.
XXXX Controllers...Thud Tested....Thud aproved. ******insert Video of myslf back flipping into a river.**** (no way I will attempt it on dirt LOL)

 

[AussieJester]

LoL @ Warranty claim... Think you have 2 chance there Thudster... none and f**k all buddy hehehe...

I wonder after seeing this will GWhy still be flapping his gums that his lil 6FET will run the 80-130 Turnigys to 8000watt as he claims it will.. :lol:

Best of luck Thudmiester

KiM

 

[Lyen]

Hi Thud,

I'm sorry to see that happened. Your controller is definitely repairable. I have sent you a PM with my return address.

Sincerely,
Lyen