Ohio race bike.....controllers...I hate them all!

[deVries]

I believe Burtie had similar disappointment with the monster Turnigy ESC also. Glad i spent the $$ and went with Castle thinking of buying the new CC HV160.

Anyone know who has the best prices on the CC HV160?

 

[Thud]

Contact recumpence on this forum,
I bought the loaner from him For a very competitve price.
Matt is good people.

 

[Thud]

Hey gang,

I have fixed 2 of my poped controllers now & was getting ready to go out & set up "Thuds DUD" for some video on 72v
I droped the hall throtle on the drive way & it shattered like glass.I really need to adapt a "real" trottle housing....these china cheapo hall throttles do nothing for my confidence if i need to hang on in a panic situation...any one who knows racing knows your looking for the edge of them panic situation a coupe times a lap.
who makes the "best Hall throttle"

Speaking of racing: I see Safe has been troling this trhead very deeply. (ripping photo's & postulating) He also took it very personaly my sparing with aj about 1000w racing. I abaondond his race thread at MB's.....& checked today to learn I am. FAT & Lucky all the good racers went to war. Oh and my favorite....I am a Dirty Racer!. Very bold statments made in anonymity on an online forum. Almost sorry I defended the guy a few times.
Check out this rant-
Safe posted:

It's funny about Todd and his 2003 state victory. Wasn't 2003 the Iraq War? Just about every young person at that time was rushing to get into the war.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Race Strategy

I'm going to be honest about my racing strategy if a 1000 watt race actually can come together. In my opinion Todd is probably a "dirty racer" based on the smack talk he does. I've known people like that and they gain satisfaction by wrecking other riders on purpose. Since I don't want to have him on my back in the race my strategy is to have two bikes entered. My newer and legal bike would go with whatever "jockey" I can recruit. Ideally that person would be 16 years old or so and wants to lead a new generation into the sport. (and take it over) While my "jockey" is off racing towards victory then me and Todd can play "cat and mouse" at the rear of the pack if that's what he has in mind. I'll slow to a crawl if I have to in order to keep him in front of me where he can't do anything. If "Dirty Todd" wants to chase my "jockey" at the front then maybe I chase him and harrass him from behind.

I don't care so much about racing myself, but it would be nice to get the win with someone else (young) doing it. It would be good for the sport.

My best punishment on Todd is to beat him, not myself (that makes it too personal) but with a proxy racer who is everything he isn't:

Young
Athletic / Trim (not fat)

...nothing will get to Todd more than being beaten by youth.

(because it's the one thing he's already lost)

I was almost getting POed at his Jab's. I have 2 sons serving in the USMC, 1 is abroad, A fathers never ending worry. Untill I read the last hillarious post.

I am now so gratefull that I have provided some fodder for Safe to enjoy an epic raceing battle of wills. Me chasin' his factory sponcerd gazell & safe badgering me from behind...Prolly the race of the century! I wish I could have been there. (a dirty racer would brake check safe into the stone age) I put that into parenthisis so it will be easyer for Safe to copy & past into his epic thread at mb.
This is FAT/OLD/Dirty riding Thud Calling it a night....once the 2 new throttles get here I will display the dud in action (totaly leagal & off road to 8)

 

[deVries]

Thud's list of burned up controllers on this project, from memory, I could be mistaken on a few.

Turnigy 200a
CC 110hv
Maybe another CC HV110? Or just a loaner controller? (memory unclear)
6-fet infinion modded with big external sink.
6-fet infinion modded.
6-fet infinion.

Motors with very low resistance put some crazy stress on controllers until they get up to speed. This is the reason Jeremy, Moose+myself and others are working on making some proper controller designs. If you're going to pull say 100-150amps from the battery, then the FET stage needs to be able to handle around 500amps or more, because the current limiting stage, and/or partial throttle period is going to have phase currents up this high and beyond at certain points of motor operation. At the moment, the e-bike market really has a gaping hole to fill for controllers that fit this need. I think Thud did about the best a guy can do without building something entirely from scratch, and as I'm learning that hard way, building it from scratch is extremely difficult to get a layout inductively balanced to share loads between parallel FETs evenly.

1) Using EV Logix throttelizer limiting current would prevent these ESC burn-outs, but there's no way to switch it on the fly once you're moving to allow for higher amps? Any way to do this?

2) Why not use a lower rated C un-booster battery pack for stop to start-up to get to initial speed, so the phase current 5 x 30-40amps can't blow the ESC? Then, switch on the main pack with full amps once a safe rpm/speed is reached...

Would either of these methods work satisfactorily?

As for blowing those 6 Fet Infineon controllers upon initial start-up, can this method that Mike uses be a work-around?...

I've played with it extensively...

The purpose in the eyes of eBike designers is quite simple... Although some hub motors are really torquey, most just arent... to that end, you need the most torque when launching from a dead stop and so...

An engineer decides what wattage and determines the motor's torque output based on 1355 / No Load KV * Amps... Then depending on the requirements, for instance a max load weight of 300 lbs the engineer needs to find a way to get that mass (the 300lbs of you bike batteries and motor) moving along quickly... though accelleration takes more power, it only needs that power for a short time... hence Block time is supposed to be the delay in seconds before the limiting kicks in and brings you back to the programmed primary current.

Another bit you may or may not have realized is the purpose of Phase Current and why it is different than Primary or Battery Current...

At lower speeds the controller can multiply the current at the cost of voltage which is only needed (the higher voltage) once the motor is trying to gain speed.... That's why people with 9C usually recommend 2.5 X the Primary Current for this setting and it's the current your phase windings are slammed with on startup... the block time allows for a momentary surge of Primary Current to enable the output which is current amplified (the FETs do this) which in a 26" DD 9x7 Rear (Loaded kV of 10.10 @ 48v - load rating 100KG / 220lbs) - these motors don't have enough torque at 45A to get you moving and thus reduce duty cycle and power handling of the FETs, phases and every other component... then when you approach speed... you will see your current taper down because "An object in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an outside force".

By comparison - I have found that using Phase Current of lower multipliers of Primary Current like 1.5 X will result in higher top end speeds because the voltage sag is less in the current amplification process.

If your using geared hubs... these are the most fun, here I begin at 1:1 with block time at about 5 (I do run 69A limit on a 9FET shunt soldered and reprogrammed infineon with stock fets and caps) - I can't keep the nose down and my top speed reaches 30+ mph where as when I had the Phase Current at 2.5 the max speed was 27mph... Next I increased the multiplier until my top speed on a flat without wind dropped measurably... This gives me the absolute best combo of slamming accelleration, higher top speeds and better efficiency since the motor spends less time at low inefficient speeds.

 

[AussieJester]

Thud i wouldnt worry about safe mate, nobody else does anymore
I know Tyler Durden and EMF miss him greatly but its for the best he is no longer here :lol:

I went ahead and ordered a HV160 & a Throtlelizer from EVLogix as i mentioned above i
was thinking of doing, if it last me few months ill be happy with that will give me time
to get the infineon repaired and acquire some new model hall sensors.

KiM

 

[Thud]

devries,

For the record, All the castle creations are fine & in working order, The turnigy is simply junk. The 6 fet infineon's are great also, Just out matched with that big outrunner.

Actually the throtlize has a programable "burst" mode.....I need to get another decent throttle to get the throtlizer working correctly. Andrew has been very proactive to service his units. I will be giving it a full review once I have it all sorted.

A lot of what Mike is talking about refers to hub motors in this instance. It is a very differnt animal when compaird to the very low r value of the bigger/faster turning out-runners (I hate calling these rc motors). I am not an expert on controllers by any measure. I am just an ambitious experimentor.

AJ,
I can see safe with his 1/5 scale e-bikes & perfectly scaled & modeld P1 race track...playing out all the senario's of his Imaginary duel of the decade. I am glad I got here after his demise, I would have left here before getting to know all the cool people, & the world class education I have recieved. After seeing the endless posting in his motor threads & seeing how he was gleening our axial flux discusion thread. & never once mentioning where he was getting all these "great discovery's" (all of his content posts start a day or so after the ES Posts) I guess I know what an internet troll really is now.
Granted, I am not the boy I was in 1984. but as long as I am breathing, I am going to live my life, continue to mentor any one who askes for help(young & old alike) & as long as I am able & there is some one who will ride with me, I will ride. I am all done with mr Safe.

sorry for the rant.

 

[johnrobholmes]

You dirty racer you!!! :lol: :lol: At 1/5th scale versions to plan the scenarios.

 

[liveforphysics]

1) Using EV Logix throttelizer limiting current would prevent these ESC burn-outs, but there's no way to switch it on the fly once you're moving to allow for higher amps? Any way to do this?

2) Why not use a lower rated C un-booster battery pack for stop to start-up to get to initial speed, so the phase current 5 x 30-40amps can't blow the ESC? Then, switch on the main pack with full amps once a safe rpm/speed is reached...

Would either of these methods work satisfactorily?

To address #1. All the RC throttle limiting devices cut PWM duty. This works perfectly to decrease battery currents (which aren't the problem at all), but INCREASES the phase currents. You will notice Castle Creations and all the other ESC manufactures talk about why ESC's over-heat or burn-up at partial throttle so often in situations where they stay cool at full throttle. This is because going to partial throttle can easily triple the heating/current going through the FETs, even though battery current decreases perfectly in control with the devices. In other words, they amplify the controller death problem while protecting the batteries that don't need any protecting.

To address #2. The only way a cell can limit the current coming from it is to have the voltage drop, or fuse/vaporize some cell connection to open the circuit. One option results in cell heating/damage, the other in instant cell failure.

 

[deVries]

A lot of what Mike is talking about refers to hub motors in this instance. It is a very differnt animal when compaird to the very low r value of the bigger/faster turning out-runners (I hate calling these rc motors). I am not an expert on controllers by any measure. I am just an ambitious experimentor.

But, if you focus on this section:

By comparison - I have found that using Phase Current of lower multipliers of Primary Current like 1.5 X will result in higher top end speeds because the voltage sag is less in the current amplification process.

If your using geared hubs... these are the most fun, here I begin at 1:1 with block time at about 5 (I do run 69A limit on a 9FET shunt soldered and reprogrammed infineon with stock fets and caps) - I can't keep the nose down and my top speed reaches 30+ mph where as when I had the Phase Current at 2.5 the max speed was 27mph... Next I increased the multiplier until my top speed on a flat without wind dropped measurably... This gives me the absolute best combo of slamming accelleration, higher top speeds and better efficiency since the motor spends less time at low inefficient speeds.

Would this not be an Infineon programming technique that could be used with the 6fet versions to not overload the fets with too many amps from stop to start-up conditions using *outrunners* too?

I realize there is a big difference with torque between geared-hub vs outrunner, but it might work too? Experts can give us commentary. 8)

Edit: Thanks liveforphysics, your explanations clearly took care of 1 & 2. But one final thought about non-racing applications...

To address #2. The only way a cell can limit the current coming from it is to have the voltage drop, or fuse/vaporize some cell connection to open the circuit. One option results in cell heating/damage, the other in instant cell failure.

For example, using a Ping 2C-3C un-booster pack for 10 seconds for stop to start-up conditions every 3-5 minutes or so for city stop/start... that would lead to overheating and cell damage at that duty cycle (not racing) ?

More edit:

This works perfectly to decrease battery currents (which aren't the problem at all), but INCREASES the phase currents.

Also, I think you indicated in your previous post that the Phase currents can only increase about 5-6 times. So, if one starts with a lower voltage Ping type or low C battery, and then use this for the stop to start-up condition to get the bike moving. Use an ESC rated for 12s 160amp combined with a Ping 2C at 6s or 8s for just moving the bike from stop to start-up condition... 10 seconds or so to reach the target rpm before engaging the high amp LiPo battery pack, then the outrunner wouldn't be able to overload and blow the ESC fets with the bike already moving?

Sorry, if I'm just going in circles, and there is no way around this blowing the ESC. I think you are saying no matter what one does to limit the battery voltage or current the RC ESC will still blow, since the ESC will magnify the phase current without regard or consideration as to what the battery input current/voltage is.

 

[amberwolf]

I droped the hall throtle on the drive way & it shattered like glass.I really need to adapt a "real" trottle housing....these china cheapo hall throttles do nothing for my confidence if i need to hang on in a panic situation...any one who knows racing knows your looking for the edge of them panic situation a coupe times a lap.
How makes the "best Hall throttle"

Here's an idea I want to try out once I have the chance:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=279164#p279164
You could probably make one in your sleep.

 

[johnrobholmes]

Magura throttles all the way for me. They are tough as nails.

 

[dbaker]

Who has the best deal on Magura throttles?

 

[johnrobholmes]

Google magura 5k throttle, looks like I am 8)

 

[etard]

Thud,
I had to go back and read that trash Chaffe, I mean Safe, was talking on motoredbike and I have to say, Im a little scared. The guy sounds off his rocker, jabbering on and on to himself, up until all hours of the night runnng math formulas, not to mention gleaning graphs and stealing ideas off ES. The dude is unstable at best. His illusions of granduer are hilarious!! He thinks he will he remembered in the anals o history as a pioneer, instead he will be remembered as a troll and nothing more.

Any updates on the sprocket? I am getting very close to mounting mine up, but I am not exactly happy with it and really like your style of teeth. Are you happy with the intervals of tooth groupings? I think my sprocket may create alot of drag in the meshing and was thinking about cutting some teeth out to remedy this. I can't wait to see that thing in action, and Bigmoose pictures actually showed how stealth it is. I still think if you could get it same size as rim running alongside it would be uber stealth, only problem being chain so close to ground and possibilty of bending or breaking on rocks etc...

If you ever need a "jockey" for your extra ride to take Safe out, let me know. :wink:

 

[Thud]

Etard,
I am fighting the urdge to tear the bmxer apart (again) & set the dud up with the CChv160 just to ride it.....have 2 new chepo hall throttles inbound, with the thought of seeing what it does at 72v. (I need more brakes thats for sure)
I have yet another blank of lexan ready to machine & am really anxoius to see how this set up handles the power & how fast it wears. (or if it works at all) I have plans to "soft" mount it also with some grometts to spread out the pressure points. hopefully my throtles are here before the weekend.

Regarding Jockeys :lol: I never viewed motor sports with team tatics in mind, especaly sprint type racing like the Death race. The last thing I need on my record is a paid "assasine" riding blocker for me LOL.(Safe has already said he wont be at the Death race, He is not worrried about his image, its a logistics thing & he is on the "High Road" to creating a perfect world) so I have to wait for the EBRRA or whatever to get organized before I can embarrass myself in a real Ebike race LOL. Hopefully the EBRRA wont have any rules regarding Body Mass Index proportions & I will be allowed to ride.

 

[Thud]

Monster Sprocket Update:

Ran the yellow dud around tonight on the monster sprocket. Works just like it was supposed to. I did some acceleration runs with the CC HV160 & then with lyen's 18fet controller. Then I took a nice ride on a 13 mile loop through the old neigborhood.
(video tomorrow)
The lexan shows no sign of cracking or any wear. So far so good. its not a multispeed like I am used to but I can say it works under casual (prolly normal) use.

I will post some questions in the tech section looking to unleash the beast in the 18fet controller. (tonight the HV160 spanked the infineon).

 

[AussieJester]

(Safe has already said he wont be at the Death race, He is not worrried about his image, its a logistics thing & he is on the "High Road" to creating a perfect world) so I have to wait for the EBRRA or whatever to get organized before I can embarrass myself in a real Ebike race LOL. Hopefully the EBRRA wont have any rules regarding Body Mass Index proportions & I will be allowed to ride.

LMFAO... don't hold your breath the guy has been trying to get people into the EBRR thing for like 4-5 years
now, its pretty much what pissed alot off here with his continual spamming of his ideas for EBRR in everyones threads.
Then haha what makes me laugh more, dear me, he finally gets a couple of people into the electric bicycle racing
idea then totally frocks it up with his pathetic ideas of how it should be, a person with any idea how
to promote something would have welcomed you and Dogman with open arms and took on board the suggestions
offered but no not Safe has to be his way or you don't play... An inteligent person would get people racing first
with limited rules THEN when you have interest stat deciding the route EVERYONE thinks the series should take
Safe will flap his gums for another 4 years piss more people off likely be banned from the remaining forums hes on
then with a little luck disappear into the distance never to be heard of again....<--thas my dream anywayz

Good to hear the lexan sprockets are happening Thudster....I ahve sketches of my next ride on paper
and planned for a GIANT rear sprocket, although not as keen as yourself and Luke on the Lexan, used Lexan on
the front of my 1/8th scale on road rc cars back in the 80's it shattered on first serious impact haha I would think
you also have the capability to cut the same sprockets from ~4mm aliuminium Thudster? I was actually going to try
and make one myself after seeing how successful the German member here with the oobeer fancy hybrid trike
fabbed one from an old circular saw type blade!

Look forward to the videos Thud GREAT to hear the HV160 spanked the 18fet to ...i have one on the way

KiM

p.s uhm...you mention now its a single speed...uhm...Thud...would that mean you have a 2 speed sitting there
ready for sale to me then would it?

 

[johnrobholmes]

Don't get too riled up AJ, no need to get this thread going there too :lol:


I was wondering how the two controllers would dual up.

 

[gwhy!]

I was wondering how the two controllers would dual up.

No contest The lyen's 18fet controller will win hands down once its been tweeked and modded to deliver more current than the CC :wink:.

 

[Thud]

Anyone care to speculate a shunt value that will get me close to the 100 amps the 4110's are rated for?

I am wearing out the search function on this board......

oh I forgot to post some speeds CChv160 on 12cells top speed 43mph on the gravel road. Hammering acceleration.
Infineion top speed was a 32mph(current limited)on 18cells on a long run on pavement(31 on gravel) very hub like performance/very smooth pull from a stop.
Controller was warm to the touch (not hot) motor never became "really" hot either.
the final ratio on my set up last night was 11.9-1 (11-131)

 

[liveforphysics]

Infineion top speed was a 32mph(current limited)on 18cells on a long run on pavement(31 on gravel)

Whoa! Somebody is running in limp-mode. lol

I think you may have the same problem DocBass had when he ran at the drag strip. Default 3-spd switch setting if nothing is plugged into it leaves it in "2nd gear." This will be whatever it's programmed to be, but I think it's defaulted to be something like 60% current and 60% speed. Unless Lyen's controllers are programmed all differently of course.

 

[Thud]

I flashed a bunch of amp up settings.....my best was 120 phase 50 on the batt.
speed settings at 100 & 120 in all boxes...
antyhing more bat & phase was giving throttle cutting errors like the 6fet's suffer from.
The shunt values need to be tweeked to get around all them saftey nets....

I told lyen no to worry, His controllers are top notch all the way. I am just looking for the absolute edge of their capability.( I am willing to blow a couple to find that line )

 

[gwhy!]

what is it current limited to at the mo ?
opps you have already posted so its 50A as it stands

 

[Thud]

I orderd a Cycle anilyst this morning. I am tired of guessing exactly what the output/draw levels are.
(besides all the "cool" guys have them & I am a closet conformist)
I may just solder the shunts down & see what happens....there are 4 of them in this unit.

 

[gwhy!]

solder one leg on each shunt should give you approx halve the over all value which should double the current the current limits that are set in software.