Love that rosin paste for dipping, but it was in reference to the type of flux you tried with spot welding. Do you remember what kind it was?
Tabless design cylindrical cells tests
- Thread starter Pajda
- Start date
Ohhh... The liquid one. This one. https://amzn.to/3CPkoAq
Did Glitter recommend the Amazon flux you used? Have you tried the flux that Glitter sells? U.S. Solid Copper Welding Paste Flux 40g ? According to @byke , it made all the difference spot welding copper to copper on his stash of 32135 cells. Before he got the flux (which arrived a month late), he burned out his Glitter 811H by keep increasing power (and still didn't achieve successful welds onto 32135 cells). Glitter sent him a new board which got his unit back in operation at which time the flux arrived, which was the magic potion that made the difference (for copper to copper).
Note: the above info is via pm between @byke and myself. I do not own a Glitter 811H or any spot welding experience to speak of. I bought 48 32135 cells from him and built a battery for my scooter/ moped by soldering it together with copper strips. The pack turned out well (so far) and is undergoing test on the scooter.
edit:
This is my first battery build. Configuration below is temporary for testing. It has no BMS currently (I do have 2 JBD waiting to be installed- if needed). Wires will be shortened with proper termination.
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Thank you for the great information. I will be ordering and see if makes difference for me. Because with the rosin does not make difference but is the second time I hear this. I will try and report.
Do you have a Kweld or other spot welder with lower power than the Glitter? If so, please test it with copper direct (plus Glitter flux) on 18650/ 21700 cells (not nickel/ copper sandwich). If it works, it'll be a game changer!
edit:
Ingredients in the Glitter flux:
Spot welding machine copper to copper flux, resistance flux, can be used for lithium battery copper electrode spot welding and other copper products welding.
A paste copper flux composed of superfine copper-phospho-tin-nickel alloy powder, flux and binder.
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BatteryMooch
10 kW
Interesting…it’s not just flux. It’s essentially solder + flux.
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BatteryMooch
10 kW
I’m thinking that standard rosin flux, or using anything that is all flux, won’t help. It’s used to dissolve oxide layers for helping low temp soldering. Resistance (spot) welding blasts through the minor oxide layer that’s on copper all on its own.
Using a “flux” with metal powder mixed in, like what @Zambam listed, might be what makes the difference?
Looks like you can get it from Aliexpress as well:
I just found this on AliExpress:
US $17.80 | Battery Flux Resistance Welding Copper Spot Copper Flux Lithium Battery Welding Auxiliary Solder
I just ordered from AliExpress because it's not available on their website.
The composition includes nickel powder, which can make a difference since it creates resistance between the copper. This resistance generates heat, which facilitates the welding process.
The composition includes nickel powder, which can make a difference since it creates resistance between the copper. This resistance generates heat, which facilitates the welding process.
Jamesavery22
10 mW
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2019
- Messages
- 24
I meant cut a solid piece of copper into a hollow "□" shape so it has the same footprint as the 4 strips but a single piece. It'd be lighter than the overlapping strip and easier to weld.
With the laser I can do that easy. What normally I do is use a 2P piece, but in the video I was running out of it.
Me too, a great fan of tabless design which simply kills or minimises the menace due to resistance which ultimately eats the deliverable energy as wasteful heat loss. And this heat loss leads to hike temperature inside cells and accelerates the early onset of failure from all perspectives. Heat generation causes progressive loss especially when we employ the cells to high power constant load viz., power tools etc. Reducing the resistance from tab-lead configuration to tabless direct contact also improves the current distribution like anything due to complete welded contact (in tabless design). Any which way, inspite of little excess cost accounted for processing in tabless is well compensated as value added performance output and longer cycle life.
Better hope with tabless design
thermal_runaway
100 mW
Looks like the price went up. Now $19.77 + $1.67 shipping. Who else bought some?
Please document with video.
Bengy22
100 W
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2019
- Messages
- 196
Well not confirmed to be 6ah but I don't see them using that name if it wasn't. In the 2023 earnings report it was mentioned (in 2022 they called it the P55B, hinting maybe they got more capacity than expected) along side the XA3 to have finished R&D engineering verification, and both were also slated for development to be finished Dec 24'. I'm not sure if you saw this but Molicel even mentions a "P70X" on the site, hinting at combining the tabless tech and high capacity, 7ah?!?... https://www.molicel.com/newsroom/molicel-won-2024-ultra-high-power-cell-manufacturer-of-the-year/
Wow... 7ah in a 21500 would probably hit something like 360whrs/kg... encroaching on the low end of what we see in solid state batteries.
I'm kinda amazed that's even possible in such a short period of time.
I'm kinda amazed that's even possible in such a short period of time.
Pajda
10 kW
Wow! If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I wouldn't believe it. And yet the principle seems to be so simple that it could have been available here many years ago.
That's pretty amazing. I wonder what's in the flux?
from post #305
Ingredients in the Glitter flux:
Spot welding machine copper to copper flux, resistance flux, can be used for lithium battery copper electrode spot welding and other copper products welding.
A paste copper flux composed of superfine copper-phospho-tin-nickel alloy powder, flux and binder.
For those wanting to try something within the US, there is also this:
But, it doesn't appear to have the tin and nickel that's found in the Glitter version:
glitterwelder.com
In my limited testing of copper on copper, the FDJ Tool flux worked the same as Glitter. Since the FDJ Tool version doesn't have the tin and nickel, it may not work at all, or as well, with the typical nickel coating on 18650 and 21700's. Still worth a try though.
But, it doesn't appear to have the tin and nickel that's found in the Glitter version:
U.S. Solid Copper Welding Paste Flux 40g
glitterwelder.com
In my limited testing of copper on copper, the FDJ Tool flux worked the same as Glitter. Since the FDJ Tool version doesn't have the tin and nickel, it may not work at all, or as well, with the typical nickel coating on 18650 and 21700's. Still worth a try though.
