Tech bros think this is what we want in an ebike

[neptronix]

I live in an apartment and have 3 bikes.

I would not buy a bike full of proprietary parts that is ultimately worse in every measurable exchange for having to drip lube on a chain every once and a while. This isn't a good selling point.

If you were to pedal this and recharge it, you have to accept a massive loss in speed when pedaling. Imagine going from 15 to 10mph or less while pedaling to recharge the bike. And remember that the bike is 90lbs on top of the massive drivetrain drag. I don't think that's going to be much fun in exchange for occasionally being able to hit the throttle. Like on average, your speed is not going to be much better than a pedal bike due to the large amount of time huffing and puffing to only do 10mph on the flats.

 

[Nix Liou]

There are lot of people who live in apartments in urban environments. Something as simple as maintenance of the drive train is a very dirty choir incompatible with apartment living. Then there is storage. If the battery can last a week of commuting without charging, because human power augments the battery enough, then the bike can stay in some basement or ground level bike storage area, without the need of taking it up to the living unit. The bike can be dirty in the winter. I'd guess that there are very few people on this forum that fit this type demographic, so it's not as easy for them to see the benefits of this design.

I don't think a 90 lb bike that probably cannot go on buses, can't be carried up stairs etc, is particularly more viable for apartment life.

Any normal ebike you will be able to augment the batter life by pedalling, without wasting a third of your effort.

Drive train maintenance is also kind of a myth, because if you don't have time, you can just drip oil over the chain outside, ride it a few feet, and repeat. The maintenance on this system if you ever have a problem will probably cost an arm and a leg, and has no chance of being user repairable.

 

[JackFlorey]

That's just one part of a bigger picture. This bike could do regen very well.

Not if that's a standard freewheel in the back. If it's not - if it's solid - then that gives you more friction all the time, even when coasting.

It can generate power going down a hill.

See above.

It can generate more power from the human by keeping the cadence in a more optimum range.

Again, you can do the same thing with a standard drivetrain, and at MUCH higher efficiency.

So comparing a chain and saying it's 95% but this electrical thing is 60%, so it's 35% harder to pedal from point A to point B is quite likely erroneous.

I'm not saying it's "35% harder." I am saying it's less efficient. At the same speed, it will not go as far with you pedaling it as a standard bike. If you don't care about that, then yes, it could be a good option.

"But you can also charge the battery and use that!" - also yes. And there are much better ways to do that IMO.

 

[JackFlorey]

There are lot of people who live in apartments in urban environments. Something as simple as maintenance of the drive train is a very dirty choir incompatible with apartment living.

?? So you do it outside. This isn't hard. That thing is going to need far more maintenance than a typical decent road bike.

 

[Comrade]

?? So you do it outside.

I don't know what kind of urban neighborhood you live in, but I never saw anyone do bike maintenance on the sidewalk. Not even once. Or change their engine oil while parallel parked with tourists walking by.

 

[Nix Liou]

I live in an apartment and have 3 bikes.

I would not buy a bike full of proprietary parts that is ultimately worse in every measurable exchange for having to drip lube on a chain every once and a while. This isn't a good selling point.

If you were to pedal this and recharge it, you have to accept a massive loss in speed when pedaling. Imagine going from 15 to 10mph or less while pedaling to recharge the bike. And remember that the bike is 90lbs on top of the massive drivetrain drag. I don't think that's going to be much fun in exchange for occasionally being able to hit the throttle. Like on average, your speed is not going to be much better than a pedal bike due to the large amount of time huffing and puffing to only do 10mph on the flats.

I don't know what kind of urban neighborhood you live in, but I never saw anyone do bike maintenance on the sidewalk. Not even once. Or change their engine oil while parallel parked with tourists walking by.

This is because it takes so little time to do (2-3 minutes) that the chance of seeing any individual person doing it for 2 minutes every couple months is very low

 

[Nix Liou]

The best thing about a standard bike drivetrain is if you just never oil it, it will keep working for a surprisingly long time if you ignore it screaming for help, which is what every other student on my campus decides to do. And no matter how dry and worn a bike chain is, it will be more efficient than a perfectly tuned and optimized pedal generator setup.

 

[PaulD]

I think the enthusiasts underestimate how appealing this bike could be to normies, despite all of the downsides mentioned above (which I agree with) . It solves many of the main issues stopping non-riders from becoming regular riders. The anti-theft appears to be well thought out, you'll probably never have to change your brake pads, and never have to deal with an oily chain.
Most casual riders don't really want to put much pedaling effort in (otherwise they would already be regular bike riders), so pedal-to-wheel efficiency isn't important. When human power is 1/10th of the total power to the wheel, only the electric powertrain efficiency matters.
It is rumored that the base model will be sub $3500. There aren't any bosch powered ebikes with full suspension that can touch that. Maybe this will be the kick in the butt that Bosch needs to bring their system prices down?

 

[eMark]

There's a 2 mph ebike Grace Allowance for Class 3 (28mph to 30mph) even if pedals are primarily used as foot rests.

My ebike is either going 30mph or accelerating up to it 99% of the time. I use a huge 75t chain ring so I can get some exercise pedaling along at that speed and I never shift out of highest gear, but it is kind of silly having all that pointless manual drive chain hardware bolted on there just to get exercise.

Well, at least with pedals your not classified as a motor cycle assuming there is a grace allowance of 2mph (28mph to 30mph.

I don't even have any use for the pedal generated power.

Please explain ... is that because your mid-drive motor is 350w instead of 250w and 101Nm torque instead of 90 Nm?

I commute 20 miles to work, my primary battery can get that far, I always carry a spare that can as well, and I charge at work. As long as it has a little set screw to set the exercise resistance level I'd be happy with the pedals.

You need pedals (Class 3) if only used 50% of the time for pedaling and 50% of the riding time as foot rests. Yes you need pedals or the 20 mile ride to work would be boring without any pedaling exercise along the way.

 

[thepronghorn]

I'm excited about the TM-B. I like the mechanical simplicity and improved pedaling experience (always being in the right "gear") that pedal by wire enable. It does seem like the bike could be very low maintenance. I don't know how it weighs so much though, and I worry about using that touch screen in the rain and the amount of software that needs to be supported to keep this bike working for as long as I hope it would last. The price seems very reasonable for the amount of engineering that went into it, but I still want it cheaper.

 

[Nix Liou]

I'm excited about the TM-B. I like the mechanical simplicity and improved pedaling experience (always being in the right "gear") that pedal by wire enable. It does seem like the bike could be very low maintenance. I don't know how it weighs so much though, and I worry about using that touch screen in the rain and the amount of software that needs to be supported to keep this bike working for as long as I hope it would last. The price seems very reasonable for the amount of engineering that went into it, but I still want it cheaper.

Seems to be more mechanically complex, since its a much more complicated system with pedal, motor, inverter, battery, inverter, motor, and finally the belt, as opposed to simply pedal, chain, derailleur/cassette.

Theoretically it could be low maintenance if you assume electronics never fail and that belts and batteries never need maintenance or replacement (both being consumables, technically).

And yeah, I hadn't even noticed the touch screen... When has touchscreen controls on a vehicle ever been an improvement .

 

[JackFlorey]

I don't know what kind of urban neighborhood you live in, but I never saw anyone do bike maintenance on the sidewalk.

Around here, the city puts up kiosks with bike tools tethered to the pole. People regularly change tubes and chains on group rides. Generally they do it in parks (next to the bike tools) or in parking lots. I do it fairly often; most of my tube changes are away from home, and I will often do basic maintenance (adjusting brake throws, tightening accesory bolts etc) while waiting for people to show up for a ride.

Not sure where you live that that would be unsafe or illegal or something.

 

[thepronghorn]

Seems to be more mechanically complex, since its a much more complicated system with pedal, motor, inverter, battery, inverter, motor, and finally the belt, as opposed to simply pedal, chain, derailleur/cassette.

I'm comparing this to other ebikes, so both bikes are going to have pedals, battery, drive inverter, and drive motor. The difference is pedal motor, pedal inverter, and belt vs. derailleur, shifter, and chain. The pedal motor and inverter seem simpler to me, but that's just my opinion.

Theoretically it could be low maintenance if you assume electronics never fail and that belts and batteries never need maintenance or replacement (both being consumables, technically).

Normal ebikes have chains, derailleurs, shifters, and batteries, so the TM-B's single speed non freewheeling belt drive feels like an improvement in maintenance requirements to me.

And yeah, I hadn't even noticed the touch screen... When has touchscreen controls on a vehicle ever been an improvement .

 

[lnanek]

Seems to be more mechanically complex, since its a much more complicated system with pedal, motor, inverter, battery, inverter, motor,

They can probably avoid a lot of that, actually. They have patents on providing multiple voltages to the car's systems by just using the cells of the battery pack piecemeal as needed instead of separate high voltage and low voltage packs or a DC-DC buck converter. They have other patents on providing increasing voltage just by enlisting more circuits, called a solid state autotransformer, apparently.

If they did need to generate power from pedaling, they might just be able to use a brushed DC motor equivalent as the generator and feed whatever voltage is produced directly into whatever number of cells in series is needed to take the produced voltage - circuitry they may already have to support rectified regen from the brushless traction motor coming back out of the controller.

Personally, I consider the amount of power produced from pedaling useless, though. I already run my "750W" motor at 35A x ~48V my entire commute, nearly twice that, and don't need more since enforcement takes the form of cop cars pacing me to check my speed and watch if I'm pedaling. If I needed to implement infinite turtle mode I'd just hook the pedals up to the mid drive via a freewheel or something. Realistically, though, if my two battery packs fail I just call a handicap capable Uber and drive the bike home.

I enjoy the four hour commute via acoustic bike when I do do it, but my wife, kid, and job would all be pissed if I disappeared that long.

 

[Nix Liou]

I'm comparing this to other ebikes, so both bikes are going to have pedals, battery, drive inverter, and drive motor. The difference is pedal motor, pedal inverter, and belt vs. derailleur, shifter, and chain. The pedal motor and inverter seem simpler to me, but that's just my opinion.


Normal ebikes have chains, derailleurs, shifters, and batteries, so the TM-B's single speed non freewheeling belt drive feels like an improvement in maintenance requirements to me.

On a normal ebike the systems are in parallel, not in series. For example on a hub motor ebike, if the chain breaks you can still get home, and the chain may receive little wear, and there is half as many motors that need to be working (pedal generator is a motor) to limp home.

Normal mid drive ebikes with a belt drive also exist, and are basically strictly better... It's a false equivalence to compare a belt drive ebike to a chain ebike if you only care about the maintenance benefits of a belt drive. Even a rohloff, a gates carbon belt, and your choice of fancy mid drive motor is cheaper than this ebike. And lighter weight.

Also, non freewheeling is kind of horrible, efficiency wise, especially when motorized. I hope the motor can disengage otherwise if the system fails youre going to be stuck with a bike that weighs 90lbs and can barely even roll.

 

[Nix Liou]

They can probably avoid a lot of that, actually. They have patents on providing multiple voltages to the car's systems by just using the cells of the battery pack piecemeal as needed instead of separate high voltage and low voltage packs or a DC-DC buck converter. They have other patents on providing increasing voltage just by enlisting more circuits, called a solid state autotransformer, apparently.

If they did need to generate power from pedaling, they might just be able to use a brushed DC motor equivalent as the generator and feed whatever voltage is produced directly into whatever number of cells in series is needed to take the produced voltage - circuitry they may already have to support rectified regen from the brushless traction motor coming back out of the controller.

Personally, I consider the amount of power produced from pedaling useless, though. I already run my "750W" motor at 35A x ~48V my entire commute, nearly twice that, and don't need more since enforcement takes the form of cop cars pacing me to check my speed and watch if I'm pedaling. If I needed to implement infinite turtle mode I'd just hook the pedals up to the mid drive via a freewheel or something. Realistically, though, if my two battery packs fail I just call a handicap capable Uber and drive the bike home.

I enjoy the four hour commute via acoustic bike when I do do it, but my wife, kid, and job would all be pissed if I disappeared that long.

Hmmm... using individual cell groups for different voltages seems like an awkward system to implement on a small ebike scale vs an EV battery. Either way, that doesn't change the need for an inverter both directions. Brushed DC motors are abysmal for efficiency, probably an order of magnitude more losses than even a low end FOC controller. The output would generally want to be at the highest voltage, because it's preferable to wire for high voltage over high current. Same goes for input, as the inverter can be most efficient if it only needs to alter the voltage a little bit. This charge inverter setup needs to be able to handle a range of input voltages to allow for pedal cadence selection.

Yes, the pedalling may not be important for total power- but then there's no need to have such a complicated system for it. And of course, 35A is 1600w nominal there so you couldn't do the same with this ebike I assume. Their target market can't be "emoped" style ebikes, so it should be compare to other legal options, where your pedal output is perhaps an additional 30% extra power on a normal bike.

I've also heard that it can be very difficult to get a bike home via Uber. They have a specific option for people with bikes, right? But most bike racks will not support 90lbs worth of bike.

I just don't get where the overlap on the venn diagram of this bike is, but maybe I will be surprised by the market interest...

 

[thepronghorn]

On a normal ebike the systems are in parallel, not in series. For example on a hub motor ebike, if the chain breaks you can still get home, and the chain may receive little wear, and there is half as many motors that need to be working (pedal generator is a motor) to limp home.

Normal mid drive ebikes with a belt drive also exist, and are basically strictly better... It's a false equivalence to compare a belt drive ebike to a chain ebike if you only care about the maintenance benefits of a belt drive. Even a rohloff, a gates carbon belt, and your choice of fancy mid drive motor is cheaper than this ebike. And lighter weight.

Also, non freewheeling is kind of horrible, efficiency wise, especially when motorized. I hope the motor can disengage otherwise if the system fails youre going to be stuck with a bike that weighs 90lbs and can barely even roll.

You're right a belted mid drive is a better comparison in terms of maintenance/reliability. My experience with an alfine 8 IGH hasn't been good, but hopefully a rohloff would better. A belted mid drive would still require shifting and lack regen, but those are mostly personal preferences.

Do you have a link for a rohloff equipped, belted, 750W mid drive, full suspension bike for $4500?

 

[ZeroEm]

Often think about pedal by wire. The idea of motor not working and can not get myself home drags me back.

 

[Nix Liou]

You're right a belted mid drive is a better comparison in terms of maintenance/reliability. My experience with an alfine 8 IGH hasn't been good, but hopefully a rohloff would better. A belted mid drive would still require shifting and lack regen, but those are mostly personal preferences.

Do you have a link for a rohloff equipped, belted, 750W mid drive, full suspension bike for $4500?

Honestly I was speaking more from a custom build perspective. I don't really know many prebuilt bikes, esp with rohloff hubs, because I'm much more of a bike builder than a rider. The Rohloff website has a search option for bikes with it, and I saw a few with some of those features... usually not in english. You might also be interested in the Priority 12spd transmission + mid drive motor, which is designed for use with a belt as well. Not sure about the long term reliability, but it's pretty cool techn anyways...

 

[Zambam]

Battery voltage not stated. Any guess what it is?

42 x 2170 cells 850 WH performance battery
28 x 2170 cells 550 WH base battery

14S 52V?

 

[lnanek]

14S 52V?

Isn't that an LCO voltage? Rivian uses NMC or LFP, I think.

 

[ZeroEm]

Starting to see more replaceable battery packs. They are trying to figure what can be made to use them. Don't know it this will be a thing.

 

[Zambam]

Isn't that an LCO voltage? Rivian uses NMC or LFP, I think.

Isn't LCO and NMC voltages the same @3.7 nominal. 14x3.7= 51.8

 

[lnanek]

Oh, you are right. Forums say that before they moved to LFP Rivian used Samsung 50G or more recently 53G 21700 cells. Those apparently have a nominal voltage of 3.63V:


Slightly less surprising my Gouach(sp?) pack offered an NMC option now. Not that I took it

 

[gromike]

I want one, with the caveats that it's too locked down in software and hardware, too expensive, and for $4k plus you don't even get fenders! I suppose the bike will eventually get to my price point, but by then the manufacturer will be bankrupt and the bike a boat anchor.
I also want one of those hubless ebikes -- unmolested and for under a hundred bucks.