New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[casainho]

Just did a test with the sensors connected - works either way just fine - hard to say if the motor sounds better, it's so quiet I can't hear it over the bench PSU anyway!

I think VESC can switch to sensorless after the motor get over some speed, so, hall sensors are only used for the startup, so get the best of booth worlds.

For the startup, you will probably only see if sensorless works well or not when there is load on the motor, so on your EBike and with your weight added.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Beemac, I’ve been trying to contact you via the PM, seems it’s not getting through. I have a large amount of spares you can use.

 

[amberwolf]

Beemac, I’ve been trying to contact you via the PM, seems it’s not getting through.

possibly helpful:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15521

 

[beemac]

Beemac, I’ve been trying to contact you via the PM, seems it’s not getting through.

possibly helpful:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15521

It got through, i've just not been online! Cheers Waynemarlow - have replied

 

[casainho]

I did my first rides on my EBike with Bafang M500 motor and FlipSky VESC 75100. It's perfect. Very soft startup, high torque, very responsive.

Bafang M500 motor does not have hall sensors, uses instead a magnetic encoder that is superior to hall sensors. Still, I tested this motor both with and without the magnetic encoder -- the motor works well without the encoder thanks to the VESC sensorless algorithm. Seems to me that sensorless works well for the ones that startup by pedaling but for the others that uses throttle, than the magnetic encoder is the perfect option. On TSDZ2 will be the hall sensors. Since this is a DIY project, avoiding to use the hall sensors can be an (little??) advantage.

On my EBike, I do not have yet the wheel speed sensor connection and motor temperature sensor. I am also working to put all the cables in a clean way as also make everything water prof. I think I will take no more than 1 month to fully finish the project and being riding on my EBike.

@beemac, please keep sharing the details of your development, and many pictures :wink:

I am sharing the firmware, schematic, 3D printed models and pictures, here: https://github.com/OpenSourceEBike/EBike_EScooter_app_pyhton/tree/main/images

 

[beemac]

@beemac, please keep sharing the details of your development, and many pictures :wink:

Will do, I've hit a bit of a roadblock atm with the nrf dongle (might have to jump to the esp32 after all) - can't find a pin that's suitable for the torque sensor. Well I can - but it's on a pad on the reverse side - and of course I can't get to that since I've soldered the nrf to breadboard. Can't believe there is only 1 exposed pin that can do high frequency IO and ADC wired up on the dongle (P0.04) all the others are either not exposed (P0.00/P0.01/P0.05) or low freq - 10Khz or less. pita...

Hoping I can find a solution - i know you're keen on people joining you on the esp32 - and it is very cheap - but i've spent many hours getting this board ready to start coding... don't want to have to solder another board so soon! :x :lol:

https://infocenter.nordicsemi.com/topic/ps_nrf52840/pin.html?cp=4_0_0_6_0

https://infocenter.nordicsemi.com/topic/ug_nrf52840_dongle/UG/nrf52840_Dongle/hw_drawings.html

 

[beemac]

I did my first rides on my EBike with Bafang M500 motor and FlipSky VESC 75100. It's perfect. Very soft startup, high torque, very responsive.

Nice! Is that with a similar wattage level to the stock bafang controller - or with more power? I assume you're using a lower voltage with the flipsky than the stock controller - but maybe bumping up the amps.

 

[beemac]

I will try switch to this ESP32 board, which is small and cheap, with the advantage to have Wifi for the wireless programming. Maybe we could work together on the EBike application. I plan to use the same application for my Xiaomi EScooter, the only difference is that I will use a throttle only and the motor also brakes, so I will need to apply a negative motor current.

Why the potential move to an ESP-S2 rather than your current S3? Doesn't that lose you BLE? I thought you were keen on ANT+ etc.

the dual pin rows are a bit of a pain for soldering as well. Is the below board the current S3 board you use? I like the form factor better - can socket it too to make easy replacements if I blow it up!

 

[endlessolli]

Here is my 1st 3D-print... definitely not something fancy - but useful:
It is an adapter (or a set of shims) to be able to attatch the VLCD5 display (from TSDZ2 Motor-Kit) to an (old?) std. handle-bar with 25.4mm diameter (vs newer 31.8mm - where the VLCD5 fits w/o adapter)


Thingiverse link:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5760664
(You need to print 2 for 1 handlebar)

 

[casainho]

I will try switch to this ESP32 board, which is small and cheap, with the advantage to have Wifi for the wireless programming. Maybe we could work together on the EBike application. I plan to use the same application for my Xiaomi EScooter, the only difference is that I will use a throttle only and the motor also brakes, so I will need to apply a negative motor current.

Why the potential move to an ESP-S2 rather than your current S3? Doesn't that lose you BLE? I thought you were keen on ANT+ etc.

the dual pin rows are a bit of a pain for soldering as well. Is the below board the current S3 board you use? I like the form factor better - can socket it too to make easy replacements if I blow it up!

Oh, really I didn't saw that of missing BLE on S2. I think BLE is important so we can connect to the "Smart BMS Bluetooth".

I wish to try ESP-S2 just because the board is smaller than S3 but since it misses the Bluetooth, I think I will keep using the ESP-S3 board.

For ANT+, I plan to keep using NRF52840, like an external module. There are ANT+ modules but the better is to use the NRF52840 to have much higher flexibility.

I use this ESP32-S3 board:


And to be clear, I just like ESP32 because it run Pyhton and can be programmed wireless, otherwise I would probably keep using the NRF52840.

 

[beemac]

Oh, really I didn't saw that of missing BLE on S2. I think BLE is important so we can connect to the "Smart BMS Bluetooth".

I wish to try ESP-S2 just because the board is smaller than S3 but since it misses the Bluetooth, I think I will keep using the ESP-S3 board.

For ANT+, I plan to keep using NRF52840, like an external module. There are ANT+ modules but the better is to use the NRF52840 to have much higher flexibility.

I use this ESP32-S3 board:


And to be clear, I just like ESP32 because it run Pyhton and can be programmed wireless, otherwise I would probably keep using the NRF52840.

Another thing to look out for with the ESP modules - is the 1U ones have external antenna connectors - if you want to mount inside the motor case with an aerial outside.

I'm still deciding what to do - if I can find a solution for the lack of a suitable pin on the nrf dongle then I'll continue with that - if not, then I need a new mcu board and there's definitely a benefit in both testing the same hardware and interfacing circuits (more or less) - even if I keep coding in c++ on the esp32.

Long term it could make sense to have a c++ firmware for power utilisation and performance. With CircuitPython used for rapid development of ebike apps/algorithms - once tested and working code can be easily refactored into the c++ firmware... so not totally a waste of time if I work on a separate c++ firmware.

 

[beemac]

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5760664

fyi the link is broken

 

[beemac]

...I've hit a bit of a roadblock atm with the nrf dongle (might have to jump to the esp32 after all) - can't find a pin that's suitable for the torque sensor. Well I can - but it's on a pad on the reverse side - and of course I can't get to that since I've soldered the nrf to breadboard. Can't believe there is only 1 exposed pin that can do high frequency IO and ADC wired up on the dongle (P0.04) all the others are either not exposed (P0.00/P0.01/P0.05) or low freq - 10Khz or less. pita...

Oh I've just found a itsybitsy 52840 in my box of bits... that's got many more high speed pins exposed... decisions decisions :lol:

interesting point about low speed pins causing radio interference but not actually being speed-limited...

 

[endlessolli]

Here is my 1st 3D-print... definitely not something fancy - but useful:
It is an adapter (or a set of shims) to be able to attatch the VLCD5 display (from TSDZ2 Motor-Kit) to an (old?) std. handle-bar with 25.4mm diameter (vs newer 31.8mm - where the VLCD5 fits w/o adapter)

IMG_1987.jpg
Thingiverse link:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5760664
(You need to print 2 for 1 handlebar)

.... There were some issues with the link (thanks @beemac for pointing out)
-> It is now fixed

 

[beemac]

@beemac, please keep sharing the details of your development, and many pictures :wink:

Will do, I've hit a bit of a roadblock atm with the nrf dongle (might have to jump to the esp32 after all) - can't find a pin that's suitable for the torque sensor. Well I can - but it's on a pad on the reverse side - and of course I can't get to that since I've soldered the nrf to breadboard. Can't believe there is only 1 exposed pin that can do high frequency IO and ADC wired up on the dongle (P0.04) all the others are either not exposed (P0.00/P0.01/P0.05) or low freq - 10Khz or less. pita...

For now - assuming that the info about low speed pins being high speed but with potential radio interference is correct I'm going to disable the radio and work on some code. I'm sure i'll find more issues that mean further changes. I'm going to try and separate hardware specific code and the functional ebike bits so that any move to a different MCU later requires minimal changes.

I do wonder if it's worth looking into how we might develop standard software interfaces for ebike (or other evehicle) peripherals and motors so that work can be reused/integrated more easily. I would hope that exists already and I'm just not aware - if not, we should do it!

 

[casainho]

I do wonder if it's worth looking into how we might develop standard software interfaces for ebike (or other evehicle) peripherals and motors so that work can be reused/integrated more easily. I would hope that exists already and I'm just not aware - if not, we should do it!

I think everything on EBikes proprietary are custom developments. Like Bafang with their CAN motors, seems to follow their protocol over all that motors. But I think other manufacturer will do different, unique, custom protocol.

On OpenSource projects, I guess VESC is the most popular generic motor controller, so I would take it as reference.

 

[ornias]

Also: The motor is about 400-450 euro's incl. Tax (Which is always the case when prices are in euro's)

Nope - 246,64EUR incl free shipping from germany:
https://www.pswpower.com/products/europe-or-china-stock-36v-250w-or-350w-42t-vlcd5-tsdz2-electric-bicycle-central-mid-motor-with-throttle-e-brake-lever-79

That's not the good 48v version, I tend to ignore 36v

 

[endlessolli]

Also: The motor is about 400-450 euro's incl. Tax (Which is always the case when prices are in euro's)

Nope - 246,64EUR incl free shipping from germany:
https://www.pswpower.com/products/europe-or-china-stock-36v-250w-or-350w-42t-vlcd5-tsdz2-electric-bicycle-central-mid-motor-with-throttle-e-brake-lever-79

That's not the good 48v version, I tend to ignore 36v

Doesn't matter, your quoted numbers were in any case way too high, as also 48V Version costs €242,43
https://www.pswpower.com/products/europe-or-china-stock-48v-500w-or-48v-750w-vlcd5-or-vlcd6-or-xh-18-lcd-tsdz2-electric-bicycle-mid-motor-with-torque-sensor-65

 

[sqeeezy]

Test rode Decathlon Rockrider 8.2 fitted with 52v LiFePO4 battery and TSDZ2B today. Fitting was easy, no cables under the BB. Strangely, I can access all 9 gears on the cassette no problem, c.f. my Giant Cypress DX where I had to shuffle the sprockets as the chainline gave problems. Handlebars are cluttered with tricky MTB stuff already, but managed to shoehorn in thumb-throttle and mini-controller. Bike was cheap second-hand and I'd recommend as a donor. I'll fix squealing brakepads later.

 

[dameri]

Where can I find these washers to torque sensor?

 

[Elinx]

Where can I find these washers to torque sensor?.....

I think it will be interesting to read this post of Wapous how he did this.
The link is expired, but this shop has the same size (80x0.18mm)

 

[dameri]

Where can I find these washers to torque sensor?.....

I think it will be interesting to read this post of Wapous how he did this.
The link is expired, but this shop has the same size (80x0.18mm)

Thank you Elinx but i actually meant white ones.

 

[Elinx]

.... i actually meant white ones.

I never found them, but it is possible to buy white Ptfe film too

 

[dameri]

.... i actually meant white ones.

I never found them, but it is possible to buy white Ptfe film too

Thanks again Elinx. It looks like some parts to TSDZ2 are self-made.

 

[dameri]

You will need to order the material in bulk and trim the washers yourself.
Aliexpress Supplier (good service): https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3296757 ... 4c4ddaeMzb
You can order 0.5mm or 0.3mm Teflon sheets. I recommend 0.3mm for a precise fit. I installed 3X 0.3mm washers instead of 2X 0.5mm washers.

Try this new AliExpress adress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003653938258.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.6ef81f77JJlSdQ&algo_pvid=71db9b11-bbee-4223-a2ba-c7c61ad7e0ab&algo_exp_id=71db9b11-bbee-4223-a2ba-c7c61ad7e0ab-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000026664950993%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21CAD%2116.39%2115.57%21%21%21%21%21%402102111816742277699505644d0688%2112000026664950993%21sea&curPageLogUid=aiqB7MxrB7Ox

Thank you Wapous, I measured old ones and get result about 0,5 mm as in your picture. But I'll try what your recommend.