New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[amberwolf]

The Technical Reference forum is meant just for that, if you make a thread ask an admin to copy it over there then its just read-only.

 

[Farther]

Its tough to make a product that pleases everyone. It will be interesting to see how the e-bikes will evolve into categories and blend with the cycling community. I can appreciate the need for speed and power but I have motorcycles for that. My attraction to the TSDZ2 system is from an ex mtn bike racers perspective. The 250 watt 36 volt system is the perfect assist for a 61 yr old. I still have good leg function and the desire for a good workout but the extra help just makes me feel like a 20 yr old and lets me match the pace and distance of my younger buddies. I spend all of my time at level 2 assist because 3 doesn't let me "push" on the pedals enough. It feels too much like I'm pedaling air which actually hurts my knees more. Level 4 is not usable for me except on the road in high gear. For my use the sweet spot is 36 volts. You have no durability issues, can use cheaper, lighter batteries and I have more range than my legs.

I suspect (and hope) that the industry splits into two categories. There will always be a large group who want high wattage throttle equipped bikes but I hope they keep a low power torque sensing category and I hope that option becomes accepted for use on mountain bike trails. I fear that we will become our worst enemies and never be welcome on trails or sidewalks. We could get stuck in the middle,... not quite road legal but not sidewalk or trail legal either. It will be a challenge for the industry to avoid an image of speed crazed hooligans that need to be banned from having too much fun.

I still ride mountain bike trails until the rules catch up but I shut off the motor and make eye contact and conversation when passing cyclists or hikers so they don't look down at my bike. So far I have managed to remain invisible but I fear my over sized grin will give me away

Wow, great post! I'm 64 and building my first ebike. It's on a new Specialized Roll Elite which is a beefy comfort style bike. Like you, I ride for exercise and enjoyment, but need a little help on the ever growing hills and strong winds. I have a 48v 500w TSDZ2 coming next week. Hope it's not an overkill for me.

 

[Farther]

15amps seems to about the limit the system will be dependable at. At least in our experience.

In order for the TS to run 52v it needs the 52v controller.

There are bugs in the TSDZ2 that need to be worked out. We have had controller issues with the 52v in regards to the torque sensing that have been particularly annoying. The stock 48v seems to be trouble free. Also the nylon gear doesn't like the extra power and thus the brass (much heavier) replacement.

We have received info that the soon to arrive LB01 will have a different nylon gear that has more "tooth" to it. No word on the controller or overall look at the new system yet.

Tell me about the LB01 motor please.

 

[gggplaya]

Finally finished my bike:
--GT Talera 4.0
--700x47C with Alex DM24 29" rims.
--Nuvinci N380 Hub
--Surley Singleator chain tensioner.
--500W TSDZ2 48V
--42 Tooth Chainring from Electrify Bike Co., but of future-bike.it origin.

The only thing left to do is wait for and install some rotor shims on the rear disc brake. Unfortunately the Nuvinci upgrade has the rotor mounted about 1-2mm too far inward. That futur-bike chainring really gives it a great chainline. No more sketchy noises from a deraillure or jumping chain when in top gear while trying to pull my son up a steep hill.

But so far my impressions of this system is very good. My last e-bike was a geared hub motor with only cadence sensing. I didn't like it at all, and the motor continued to spin for 1-2 seconds after you stop pedaling. This system stops very quickly and responds fairly quick, with about a quarter turn of the pedal. 500W is plenty, I just wanted lots of torque to get up hills, which is does very well in level 4, however, I still want a workout so i'll keep it on level 1 or 2 most of the time.

 

[qwerkus]

Go and take photos of XH-18.
Use an FTDI cable to read what data LCD send to the controller. You will need to change parameters on LCD and figure out which bits does change.
Than do the same for the controller, you can wire the FTDI in parallel to original lines, that works and is what I did.

I need to know the protocol/data sent and received by the LCDs, to implement on the firmware.

Sounds good to me. Cheapest XH-18 I found is the one from pswpower

Now this one looks pretty similar: S886 Any thoughts on that one ?

And than I saw this: TSDZ2 with bafang display

850C display is usually sold with bafang kits. Does that mean that bafang and tongsheng use the same communication protocols ?

 

[John and Cecil]

Very nice build GGG!

Has anyone made an electronic "clutch" yet for this motor? The "stop pedaling" or "releasing throttle" works but I think the timing could be much better/faster, especially when on inclines. It can probably be wired to the display instead of the brake lever.

 

[casainho]

Very nice build GGG!

Has anyone made an electronic "clutch" yet for this motor? The "stop pedaling" or "releasing throttle" works but I think the timing could be much better/faster, especially when on inclines. It can probably be wired to the display instead of the brake lever.

Why not use the Bafang shift sensor??

 

[casainho]

My last e-bike was a geared hub motor with only cadence sensing. I didn't like it at all, and the motor continued to spin for 1-2 seconds after you stop pedaling. This system stops very quickly and responds fairly quick, with about a quarter turn of the pedal. 500W is plenty, I just wanted lots of torque to get up hills, which is does very well in level 4, however, I still want a workout so i'll keep it on level 1 or 2 most of the time.

Currently you can buy a bottom bracket torque sensor for 40€ and it works very well. Very fast response also, and it can be used as "human power" (torque * cadence), torque sensor or PAS modes.
And direct drive hub motors are the quiet possible and can ebrake/regen with a level controlled by the pedals also, like coast brakes.

But other disadvantages like less torque...

Very nice build, clean. Thank you for sharing.

 

[John and Cecil]

Why not use the Bafang shift sensor??

I did not know they would work with the Tdsz2. Is anyone here using a shift sensor and if so how did you wire it?

 

[Bigwheel]

Dang phone

 

[Bigwheel]

Very nice build GGG!

Has anyone made an electronic "clutch" yet for this motor? The "stop pedaling" or "releasing throttle" works but I think the timing could be much better/faster, especially when on inclines. It can probably be wired to the display instead of the brake lever.

If you are using the brake levers that act as cutouts just grab a little bit of them, not enough to activate the brake, and that will cut the motor while shifting acting like a sort of clutch.

I have mine set that way but don’t use it as much as just backing off on the pedal force and then shifting. The drive runs for long enough to make the shift for you usually if you time it right and without tension.

 

[m3lonbr3ad]

If you're using a typical style rear derailleur and cassette you should not have any issues shifting under load. The bottom of the chain is not in much tension regardless of motor output.

 

[casainho]

Why not use the Bafang shift sensor??

I did not know they would work with the Tdsz2. Is anyone here using a shift sensor and if so how did you wire it?

Sorry, I wanted to mean in future with our firmware. We will need to test Bafang shift sensor and see if it really works well... I still don't know how it detects gear changing....

And since someone also show a link were someone is selling TSDZ2 with Bafang LCD, maybe TSDZ2 can take advantage over existing Bafang parts...

 

[Waynemarlow]

Guys, don't over complicate things, the TDSZ2 works extremely well straight out of the box, yes it would be great to be able to refine it but in comparison to the Bafung factory default settings which are truly horrible, the TDSZ2 default is almost good enough to go out of the box.

You don't need brake cutoffs and you don't need shift sensors, just stop turning the pedals for ferk sake, it does the same, shifting on the later derailleurs on a 10spd cassette is fine as the shift spacing ratios are so small that the chain will go up and down no problem. I would suspect that it maybe exasperated a little on the 7spd shifters but who is still using those.

My only beef with the units are.
The lack of flexibility of us being able to choose what voltage we run the motors at and the higher end cadence for the more active rider. It sounds as though the new software can change the voltage limits and we know that a 36volt motor run at higher voltage will give us the higher cadence we're looking for. So a 36 volt unit purchased with a software tweak solves that issue.

Slightly less of a beef are the problems of new riders putting weight on the pedals when switching on and getting a wrong calibration, that calibration needs to be put into the setup screen and not at every time the unit switches on.
The unit will time out when you are talking whilst waiting for the slower riders to catch up, we need to be able to extend the time out period, again from the setup screen.

Other than those small issues and the blue gear problems ( which I think is mainly a user problem but again could be sorted in the ramp up of power/ to wheel revolution speed within software ) the units out of the box are pretty good, which is something completely opposite to the Bafung I have which has a really well sorted unit but terrible software. I suspect Bafung have intentionally let people develop software to enable users to choose what they want and I'm all for that.

My gut feeling though is that once the TDSZ2 units foibles are sorted and they are relatively few, they will be a direct competitor to the Bafung and for mainly the cyclist wanting to feel like a cyclist and not a moped rider, they will be a much much better unit.

 

[John and Cecil]

No I am not using the brake levers, I have hydraulic brakes and the sensors do not work for them. It is funny because I am so used to motorcycles that I sometimes hit the brakes by accident early in a ride thinking it is the clutch

The motor stops quickly when you stop pedaling, however when climbing a steep hill and reducing gears as speed decreases quicker shifts would be better. A gear sensor or a cutoff button would allow quicker shifts when you are fighting gravity and every second off the cranks means substantial momentum losses...

I actually like the lower cadence, it is more of a relaxed ride and it seems to make for smoother shifts when you pedal up past the motor's top speed before you shift up a gear.

 

[gggplaya]

FYI, i love my nuvinci cvt hub, but does not shift at all under load. The problem is, even if the motor cuts out. You’re still spinning the pedals which is still spinning enough to cause the nuvinci to not shift.

In a cadence only setup, the motor doesnt stop very quickly, and may run for another second after you stop pedaling, which really necessitates the need for a gear sensor. If the motor stops quick enough after you stop pedaling or if you derailleurs are more tolerant to light pedaling, you prob dont need a shift sensor.

 

[casainho]

No I am not using the brake levers, I have hydraulic brakes and the sensors do not work for them.

I think there are on the market sensor for hidraulic brakes -- please note that "the sensor" just needs to short 2 wires when braking meaning that can be something simple as a mechanical switch.

 

[John and Cecil]

I don't need the brake sensors, I have 300,000 miles on motorcycles and a I let off the throttle/pedals instinctively when braking. Faster shifting on the other hand could be useful when climbing hills as I lose a lot of momentum now. I may be going 20-25mph at the bottom but when I start climbing a steep hill I just drop into 1st gear and engage the pedals and the motor when we reach about 10mph. But soon out new lower gear ratio will mean a drop to 6.5mph in 1st gear, which will make shifting on the steep incline all the more important.

That is what I was thinking though, just make a clutch button and give it a quick press each time I shift.

 

[John and Cecil]

There is another glitch in the software I have been noticing. If you are pedaling with eco assist and then you decide to boost power with the throttle the motor will cut out completely for a second or so until the throttle engages. I would not mind reducing or eliminating this lag time in the firmware if possible.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I have to say my 500W unit the delay from stopping peddling to the engine stopping putting energy in, is almost instantaneous.

I've found no need for a throttle even with all the single track riding I do in quite technical climbs, unlike the Bafung BBS02 I have which is so a necessity. Its very easy to make a brake cutoff with hydraulic brakes, look on the Bafung sites and you can buy them relatively cheaply or buy a reed magnet from any good electronics supplier and pair them up with a high field magnet that has a hole in it. Simply bolt the magnet to the lever and glue the sensor, they can be tiny as the wires carry no current.

Its a pity the DiVinci won't change under load, but surely that must be the case even just peddling ?

 

[gggplaya]

Its a pity the DiVinci won't change under load, but surely that must be the case even just peddling ?

Yes, because the TSDZ2 shuts off almost instantly, it's really the same with or without the motor as a regular bike. You have to stop pedaling.

The problem with cadence sensor bikes is that they keep spinning for 1-2 seconds after yous top pedaling. So they're not like a normal bike. They actually introduce a problem shifting, so a gear sensor is crucial.

 

[AWD]

Nobody "needs" brake sensors. I have three e bikes and only one brake lever, the left one on my mtb, is sensored. I use it for the aforementioned purpose occasionally and think a switch would be just something else to crowd the bar space. If you had to move your hand to get to it in the heat of the moment especially.

My road bikes are throttle only and my mtb has one as I find it useful for initial startup to get of a pedal stroke in to activate the PAS, especially if I blow it, or up , in the middle of a climb and restarting. Sometimes a blip while timing my cranks to avoid striking them which can get funky with PAS. I find it funny that the Class I crowd are wanting shorter and shorter cranks because of this. I guess I am just a Class II citizen and stick with my preferred 170's I have on all my bikes.

As far as I know there is no way to map the throttle response but for sure it is lacking in comparison to the ones on my drop bar bikes that I have tuned through my CAIII. Might be nice to get it tuned though eventually and I don't feel the need for a CA on this bike but I suppose that would do the trick.

 

[Waynemarlow]

"The problem with cadence sensor bikes is that they keep spinning for 1-2 seconds after yous top pedaling. So they're not like a normal bike. They actually introduce a problem shifting, so a gear sensor is crucial".

But the TDSZ2 is not a cadence sensing motor setup unlike the Bafung.

 

[casainho]

"The problem with cadence sensor bikes is that they keep spinning for 1-2 seconds after yous top pedaling. So they're not like a normal bike. They actually introduce a problem shifting, so a gear sensor is crucial".

But the TDSZ2 is not a cadence sensing motor setup unlike the Bafung.

TSDZ2 also has a candence sensor + torque sensor. Torque sensor is much faster to react and so it is used to detect stop pedals.

 

[gggplaya]

"The problem with cadence sensor bikes is that they keep spinning for 1-2 seconds after yous top pedaling. So they're not like a normal bike. They actually introduce a problem shifting, so a gear sensor is crucial".

But the TDSZ2 is not a cadence sensing motor setup unlike the Bafung.

Never said it was