Ohio race bike.....controllers...I hate them all!
- Thread starter Thud
- Start date
bigmoose
1 MW
Good luck Thud! I'm on my way, driving back from Wash DC, but should make it OK. They say "gates open at 9:00... do you know when the event(s) are? This is the post on the web site:
I'll likely get there around 10 or 11am unless the race is earlier.
Wifey said weather about 60 miles from Carrothers is 86 degrees, humid and sunny. No rain all day but a "spritz" about 5pm. Here is the best weather radar for our area:
http://radar.wunderground.com/data/640x480/2xradara4_anim.gif
I don't listen to anyone, just look at that radar, it tells the entire story for rain.
I'll likely get there around 10 or 11am unless the race is earlier.
Wifey said weather about 60 miles from Carrothers is 86 degrees, humid and sunny. No rain all day but a "spritz" about 5pm. Here is the best weather radar for our area:
http://radar.wunderground.com/data/640x480/2xradara4_anim.gif
I don't listen to anyone, just look at that radar, it tells the entire story for rain.
AussieJester
1 TW
ooooh with BiGMoooSE in your corner to Thudster you can't loose mate! give him 3 minutes with the Turnigy and Halls and that thing will have 2 more H.p buddy hehee... Your only a spectator i gather BiGMoooSE? Don't forgewt the camera! preferably video camera haha... have fun & don't forget "Thudster ABSOLUTELY SIDEWAYS out on the highline where angels fear to tread" <--(One of My Fav lines from Con Migro, a local speedway owner/commentator here in OZ few years back... ) not sure how fast a "paralysing burst of speed" is meant to be Thud :lol: Long as your "absolutely sideways" though you will be good to go mate 
KiM
p.s MAKE IT PiIiiiIiiiSSSsSS
KiM
p.s MAKE IT PiIiiiIiiiSSSsSS
colby
100 W
AussieJester said:Don't forgewt the camera! preferably video camera haha.../quote]
yes video!!!!
great build thud!! this thing is going to rip!!
good luck man
mwkeefer
1 MW
+1 for Team Thud!
-Mike
-Mike
JUST read whole thread ....... GO get em .. Loved the Kenny vid .. we have a pic together from years ago ... All my stuff on hold as I am so busy recovering from massive unemployment ..... Now doing 4G Wimax across USA ... CLEAR/Sprint HTC EVO 4G ... just came out yesterday .... AWESOME video capability ... 8mpxl=HD and can load to Qik app for live video ...GOOD LUCK! represent 8)
bigmoose
1 MW
Looks like heavy rain is in the mix for today... perhaps early afternoon. Once it starts, it will likely last the day... :-(
recumpence
1 GW
That's OK, I live northwest of Chicago. We are going to get HAMMERED today!
Matt
Matt
etard
100 kW
recumpence said:That's OK, I live northwest of Chicago. We are going to get HAMMERED today!
Matt
I didn't know you were a heavy drinker Matt, party on!! :wink:
bigmoose
1 MW
Well we found it! Even though Carrothers had a name, 8 houses wasn't enough of a town to be in my Garmin. Took a while to find it, but find it we did!
View attachment 10
Thud was camping with the motor home and had his crew ready to help.
View attachment 9
We were in a corn field, no problems with noise... it was eerily quiet...
View attachment 8
The track, rained last night, but the clay was getting good and sticky.
View attachment 7
When we got there Thud was already hard at work! He had ridden about 80 meters in the clay, had made a nice donut or two when his first controller bit the dust.
View attachment 6
The tools were all out and ready to go
View attachment 5
Luke would be happy! Plenty of LiPo to go, this is the second set balancing. Thud came ready to ride! Generator in the motor home made it just like being in the garage.
View attachment 4
Thud did a great job adding halls to the "lil Turnigy"!
View attachment 3
The final connections are made to controller #2, Thuds crew ready to assist
View attachment 2
Can you believe it? Controller #2 Dead At the Line... Rain is coming, this is a real setback
View attachment 1
BigMoose says to Thud: "Yep, it's busted..."
... more to come
Took a while to find it, but find it we did!View attachment 10
Thud was camping with the motor home and had his crew ready to help.
View attachment 9
We were in a corn field, no problems with noise... it was eerily quiet...
View attachment 8
The track, rained last night, but the clay was getting good and sticky.
View attachment 7
When we got there Thud was already hard at work! He had ridden about 80 meters in the clay, had made a nice donut or two when his first controller bit the dust.
View attachment 6
The tools were all out and ready to go
View attachment 5
Luke would be happy! Plenty of LiPo to go, this is the second set balancing. Thud came ready to ride! Generator in the motor home made it just like being in the garage.
View attachment 4
Thud did a great job adding halls to the "lil Turnigy"!
View attachment 3
The final connections are made to controller #2, Thuds crew ready to assist
View attachment 2
Can you believe it? Controller #2 Dead At the Line... Rain is coming, this is a real setback
View attachment 1
BigMoose says to Thud: "Yep, it's busted..."
... more to come
RWP
1 kW
Hey, thanks so much for the pics and update.
My heart goes out to you guys. Hoping for some magic!
My heart goes out to you guys. Hoping for some magic!
bigmoose
1 MW
The men from Acme Motorbikes started to come over to see how they could help. Thud already had some good motorbike chain added to the "Yellow Jacket" (BigMoose Wifey's name for Thuds Prime Ride) to use his big lexan sprocket.
View attachment 12
Some of the gassers
View attachment 11View attachment 10
The fairing work on these fenders by Acme were absolutely Superb!!
View attachment 9 View attachment 8 View attachment 7
This baby was headed to Australia this week!
View attachment 6
There was even an electric in the Acme Garage! Nice Divinci rear.
View attachment 5
Well the gassers were lining up for the race, we needed to get Thud ready and on the line. Well a couple of them...
View attachment 4
The final preparations on controller #3, Thud's almost there!
View attachment 3
Well... it started to rain, the Wifey went into the Trailblazer with my camera, so we missed the spin up of the rear wheel. Whooppe we all cheered, including my wifey! Thud was ready to race. The bike came off the stand, Thuds crew cleaned the treads in his tires. Thud got into his riding position and hit the throttle... and hit the throttle... and ... hit the throttle... and jiggled the wires... and reset the controller... and ... controller #3 became a piece of silicon where the electrons and the holes had lost their way... The "Yellow Jacket was sidelined without a race...
Thud, the ever optimist said, no problem I'll show you some wheelies with the "Red Devil" (Note, another name given to Thud's bikes on our way home by my wifey.)
View attachment 2
The heavens opened, and God said: "Let there be rain on Carruthers, Ohio; and let it rain as in the days of Noah!"
View attachment 1
BigMoose opined if we would see the great "ESD Event" while Thud was riding out in the open. We all bowed our heads and asked that the only electrons we see flying around would be in the batteries to the motor in Thuds "Red Devil" and not from a cloud to Thud or us.
Thud came back from showing us about a half dozen wheelies while riding through 4 inch standing water, with that huge EV-grin on his face! It's amazing how cool open motors and controllers run in the heavy rain!
All in all a nice time and great to meet Thud, Dave and other gent in his crew. The folks from Acme Motor Bikes (Camlifter) were great, and their workmanship is superb! Thuds bikes are artistry in motion, with well thought out drive trains and impeccable CNC execution of transmissions, spacers, sprockets and brackets. I am sure that if he only had another day or two, he would have given the gassers a run for the money in the morning session.
Too bad the heavens opened up the way they did... I guess that is our Ohio hospitality...
View attachment 12
Some of the gassers
View attachment 11View attachment 10
The fairing work on these fenders by Acme were absolutely Superb!!
View attachment 9 View attachment 8 View attachment 7
This baby was headed to Australia this week!
View attachment 6
There was even an electric in the Acme Garage! Nice Divinci rear.
View attachment 5
Well the gassers were lining up for the race, we needed to get Thud ready and on the line. Well a couple of them...
View attachment 4
The final preparations on controller #3, Thud's almost there!
View attachment 3
Well... it started to rain, the Wifey went into the Trailblazer with my camera, so we missed the spin up of the rear wheel. Whooppe we all cheered, including my wifey! Thud was ready to race. The bike came off the stand, Thuds crew cleaned the treads in his tires. Thud got into his riding position and hit the throttle... and hit the throttle... and ... hit the throttle... and jiggled the wires... and reset the controller... and ... controller #3 became a piece of silicon where the electrons and the holes had lost their way... The "Yellow Jacket was sidelined without a race...
Thud, the ever optimist said, no problem I'll show you some wheelies with the "Red Devil" (Note, another name given to Thud's bikes on our way home by my wifey.)
View attachment 2
The heavens opened, and God said: "Let there be rain on Carruthers, Ohio; and let it rain as in the days of Noah!"
View attachment 1
BigMoose opined if we would see the great "ESD Event" while Thud was riding out in the open. We all bowed our heads and asked that the only electrons we see flying around would be in the batteries to the motor in Thuds "Red Devil" and not from a cloud to Thud or us.
Thud came back from showing us about a half dozen wheelies while riding through 4 inch standing water, with that huge EV-grin on his face! It's amazing how cool open motors and controllers run in the heavy rain!
All in all a nice time and great to meet Thud, Dave and other gent in his crew. The folks from Acme Motor Bikes (Camlifter) were great, and their workmanship is superb! Thuds bikes are artistry in motion, with well thought out drive trains and impeccable CNC execution of transmissions, spacers, sprockets and brackets. I am sure that if he only had another day or two, he would have given the gassers a run for the money in the morning session.
Too bad the heavens opened up the way they did... I guess that is our Ohio hospitality...
gwhy!
100 kW
what a shame about the controllers 
, Do we know yet what happened to them 
. Thanks for the pictures BM. I wish they would hold something like this is the uk.
Thud
1 MW
Good evening Fans,
I see Big moose has spread the word. It was a true pleasure meeting Dave & Babrbra, Camlifter, & the whole crew down in Carrothers. (a spot that exists on no GPS...a very well kept secret for a good time) If the weather had coooperated I think there would have been a much better turn out, My team & silverbear were the only 3 bikes in attendence other than the promoters.
Also, no photo's can do camlifters bikes justice. They are true industrial art. I hope I could do 1/2 as nice a job on a build some day.
Needed another week to test & tune the elecrtic side of the bike.(Thuds DUD?) It ran great for a second or 2 then felt like it was in severe current limit mode & then nothing....on heat, no stink, just a "no-go". I had left the 18fet controller on the bench at home figureing 3 6fet's would be enough damage for a day. the other 2 controllers suffered he same fate.
I will disect the lil' birds & see if an fet is blown or if it was something really simple(dumb) I missed. I am giving a thumbs down on the Throttlizer. (look for it in a day or so in the reviews thread.)EDIT: retracting the thumbs down with apoligies. the unit is working now with a bit of help from evlogix & I am looking foward to really ringing it out.
Given I had no BEC on hand I dropped the BMX down to 8 cells to ride around....given the re-gear for 48v vs 29v it was only toping out near 20mph. (10ish in low range)
It occured to me on the way home I could have easily pulled the signal wire from the Ice100 & plugged it into my sevo tester as a power cource for the Ice160 hv.....
The good news is: modified meanwells are the bomb for quick charging! Not a "set it & forget it" proposition but I am very happy with that experiments results.
I been promising a video for a long time.......well here is another disapointment :lol: but lets set the bar low so every thing else will look soooo much better. After the deluge started I grabed a camera & took a real shower.
[youtube]7U0UDkMWwKM[/youtube]
(water cooling really works...don't try this at home)
I see Big moose has spread the word. It was a true pleasure meeting Dave & Babrbra, Camlifter, & the whole crew down in Carrothers. (a spot that exists on no GPS...a very well kept secret for a good time) If the weather had coooperated I think there would have been a much better turn out, My team & silverbear were the only 3 bikes in attendence other than the promoters.
Also, no photo's can do camlifters bikes justice. They are true industrial art. I hope I could do 1/2 as nice a job on a build some day.
Needed another week to test & tune the elecrtic side of the bike.(Thuds DUD?) It ran great for a second or 2 then felt like it was in severe current limit mode & then nothing....on heat, no stink, just a "no-go". I had left the 18fet controller on the bench at home figureing 3 6fet's would be enough damage for a day. the other 2 controllers suffered he same fate.
I will disect the lil' birds & see if an fet is blown or if it was something really simple(dumb) I missed. I am giving a thumbs down on the Throttlizer. (look for it in a day or so in the reviews thread.)EDIT: retracting the thumbs down with apoligies. the unit is working now with a bit of help from evlogix & I am looking foward to really ringing it out.
Given I had no BEC on hand I dropped the BMX down to 8 cells to ride around....given the re-gear for 48v vs 29v it was only toping out near 20mph. (10ish in low range)
It occured to me on the way home I could have easily pulled the signal wire from the Ice100 & plugged it into my sevo tester as a power cource for the Ice160 hv.....
The good news is: modified meanwells are the bomb for quick charging! Not a "set it & forget it" proposition but I am very happy with that experiments results.
I been promising a video for a long time.......well here is another disapointment :lol: but lets set the bar low so every thing else will look soooo much better. After the deluge started I grabed a camera & took a real shower.
[youtube]7U0UDkMWwKM[/youtube]
(water cooling really works...don't try this at home)
John in CR
100 TW
Great effort Thud. If that's not enough for the electron guru's to come up with a solid controller for RC motors in ebike use I don't know what is.
Something that's been nagging me about that dirt track oval...Wouldn't 2wd be the bomb for that race?
Can we call it "Saved by the Rain" or did they race after all?
John
Something that's been nagging me about that dirt track oval...Wouldn't 2wd be the bomb for that race?
Can we call it "Saved by the Rain" or did they race after all?
John
So what RC controller stopped working again? The first page says the Turnigy 200A. Given all the bad reviews the turnigy ESCs have had in suddenly not working, do you really think anything is going to save it with such a large motor? A motor like that easily exceeds 300 amps at the low RPM end. I wouldn't even expect an unmodified castle controller to live very long with those kind of riding conditions; my hv-110 got upto 230 degrees running a motor half that size! It really needed a powered CPU heat sink to keep the heat down but that still wouldn't save it if I was putting 300+ amps through the motor. FETs can silently and instantaneously go out with way too much instant current.
It seems like three dedicated e-bike controllers didn't survive the treatment either. if they don't, I wouldn't expect much better from an ESC.
It seems like three dedicated e-bike controllers didn't survive the treatment either. if they don't, I wouldn't expect much better from an ESC.
AussieJester
1 TW
Weather had nothing to do with lack of competitors, word
was out Thudster was in town, they all stayed away to save
being embarrassed
Now for my mate GWhy, i have an answer to your question i.e-->
Well GWhy Thudsters blown 6fet controllers enough evidence for you that 6fet controllers don't work with the big Turnigy
outrunners? Edward Lyen has told me more than several times now in MSN chat to not bother with a 6fet Infineon
they wont work with the 800-100Turnigys...Lyen has told me 12fet minimum for the Turnigy if you want to run it
hard, i.e controller the size of a house brick as i originally stated months ago. ...Unfortunately Thudster
has found this out the hard/expensive way. Pitty you couldnt get the HV160 working on the BMX Thud hanging to see that tear up the dirt!
Next year Thudster ...next year 8)
KiM
was out Thudster was in town, they all stayed away to save
being embarrassed
Now for my mate GWhy, i have an answer to your question i.e-->
gwhy! said:
Well GWhy Thudsters blown 6fet controllers enough evidence for you that 6fet controllers don't work with the big Turnigy
outrunners? Edward Lyen has told me more than several times now in MSN chat to not bother with a 6fet Infineon
they wont work with the 800-100Turnigys...Lyen has told me 12fet minimum for the Turnigy if you want to run it
hard, i.e controller the size of a house brick as i originally stated months ago. ...Unfortunately Thudster
has found this out the hard/expensive way. Pitty you couldnt get the HV160 working on the BMX Thud hanging to see that tear up the dirt!
Next year Thudster ...next year 8)
KiM
Thud
1 MW
Swabluto,
All the castle creation controllers are still in full working order, It was the 6fet e-crazyman controllers that failed today. (2 of them had been upgraded to 4110 fet's & they seemed to last the longest) The turnigy monster 200amp never made it off the test bench.
I have not given up on the sensored controllers. A 12fet may be in order for the Big turnigys..... I am way to neewb to their application to be a source of information. I will disect them latter this week to see if I actually fried any of the fet's or if there was some other fail I introduced.
The nice thing about modding these is I have the confidence to see if I can fix em.
Kim, I have the 18fet in hand & was actually suprized that it was not as large as I thought.
(it would fit neatly under the battery box on my yellow bike)
All the castle creation controllers are still in full working order, It was the 6fet e-crazyman controllers that failed today. (2 of them had been upgraded to 4110 fet's & they seemed to last the longest) The turnigy monster 200amp never made it off the test bench.
I have not given up on the sensored controllers. A 12fet may be in order for the Big turnigys..... I am way to neewb to their application to be a source of information. I will disect them latter this week to see if I actually fried any of the fet's or if there was some other fail I introduced.
The nice thing about modding these is I have the confidence to see if I can fix em.
Kim, I have the 18fet in hand & was actually suprized that it was not as large as I thought.
(it would fit neatly under the battery box on my yellow bike)
AussieJester
1 TW
Thud said:
Well...Americans seem to like everything BIGGER (or is that just Texans? LoL)
As you know i have the 12 fet and IMO its freakin HUGE If we
can get controllers size of 6Fets to work i will be happier.
If you can get a 6fet to last longer than 3 minutes i'll buy
one from you in a heartbeat Thudster!
KiM
liveforphysics
100 TW
swbluto said:
Thud's list of burned up controllers on this project, from memory, I could be mistaken on a few.
Turnigy 200a
CC 110hv
Maybe another CC HV110? Or just a loaner controller? (memory unclear)
6-fet infinion modded with big external sink.
6-fet infinion modded.
6-fet infinion.
No amount of CPU heatsinks can cool the RC type controllers SWbluto. Sinking the back-side of SMT FETs is just a gesture of show rather than cooling. We've been over this a 100times before.
Motors with very low resistance put some crazy stress on controllers until they get up to speed. This is the reason Jeremy, Moose+myself and others are working on making some proper controller designs. If you're going to pull say 100-150amps from the battery, then the FET stage needs to be able to handle around 500amps or more, because the current limiting stage, and/or partial throttle period is going to have phase currents up this high and beyond at certain points of motor operation. At the moment, the e-bike market really has a gaping hole to fill for controllers that fit this need. I think Thud did about the best a guy can do without building something entirely from scratch, and as I'm learning that hard way, building it from scratch is extremely difficult to get a layout inductively balanced to share loads between parallel FETs evenly.
Seeing the rain, and the plague of bad luck, I still wish I could have been there. I'm damn jealous that Thud got to meet BigMoose in person before me!
I was talking to Moose on the phone while he was driving out to the track, and I told him I hoped Thud didn't get plagued with problems that never seem to show up until you're at the track to race. There is some super-natural force in the world that lets you build a racecar, abuse the hell out of it on the dyno and the street for weeks, trying to find any weak-points to address before a race event, then the moment you're lining up at the track, it always decides to reveal it's critical hidden problems all at once... Thud did a really good job of having 3 spare controllers, and a spare bike. This shows he obviously knows the Murphy-race-Gods well. Sometimes they kick the ass of even the best prepared million-dollar-budget type race teams. It's part of the frustrating side of racing.
I think you did a good job Thud, and next year you'll be killing them.
liveforphysics said:No amount of CPU heatsinks can cool the RC type controllers SWbluto. Sinking the back-side of SMT FETs is just a gesture of show rather than cooling. We've been over this a 100times before.
All I have is my data-point, and that is the castle creations controller would get to 230+ degrees without a cpu heatsink. With a powered CPU heatsink, it stays below 120 degrees at all times on the ESC itself. Now, I recognize I'm only running 1.5 kW through this controller (Which gives more than enough time to get the heat out of the controller), so I agree if you're planning on running the BIG motors or running well above 2-3 kW on a regular basis, heatsinking on standard ESCs is somewhat inadequate. It's especially inadequate above 4 kW.
AussieJester
1 TW
swbluto said:
I have my HV110 into the 5kW range regularly every ride (pretty much every launch is 5+kW) and have yet
to have it even warm in the slightest, how are you fellas getting these
RC ESC so hot? Are you running along half throttle alot or WOT? I always
run between 3/4 and full throttle myself motor is always in the upper
realms of its rpm range.
KiM
Tiberius
10 kW
gwhy! said:
Plus one on that.
Though I would prefer to be racing on a hard surface rather than dirt. Maybe a kart track.
I do actually have access to a site in Somerset where we could do something. Its got a moto-cross course with serious jumps on it; we might be able to use that, or we could set up something around it.
Well done, Thud, BM, etc.
Nick
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